Certifications for dealing with Public Aquaria

Don Quixote

New member
Hoping some people in the Public aquarium industry will chime in here.
What is the certification process to trade and/or interact with Public Aquaria?

Regards,
Nick
 
Variable. If they are members of AZA, they typically only trade (or at the very least prioritize trade) with other AZA institutions. If they are not members of AZA, it's whatever they want to do.
 
Why do you ask? You won't be able to sell them equipment, they buy direct from manufactures. Consumables is the same, they buy bulk already. Most have their own seawater recipes and get chemicals in one ton pallets. Same for carbon or whatever you can think of. Bulk straight from the people that make it in the back of a semi.

For livestock they get animals often for the cost of shipping. They trade things around for free. When one facility has too much they call around to see who wants its. Last April I visited The California Science Center to look at an amazing reef tank. I don't think they bought any animals at all for that tank. Many corals they got from the US government, confiscated Indopacific shipments that did not comply with CITIES. Probably meaning they have species in there that are illegal for you to have.

But, you never know. If you live near an aquarium, go talk to them. Ask for somebody in Life Support. However, keep in mind that even though you may be able to arrange a better price on something they could elect to stay with existing suppliers to maintain professional relationships that help them in some other way.

--John
 
Why do you ask? You won't be able to sell them equipment, they buy direct from manufactures. Consumables is the same, they buy bulk already. Most have their own seawater recipes and get chemicals in one ton pallets. Same for carbon or whatever you can think of. Bulk straight from the people that make it in the back of a semi.

For livestock they get animals often for the cost of shipping. They trade things around for free. When one facility has too much they call around to see who wants its. Last April I visited The California Science Center to look at an amazing reef tank. I don't think they bought any animals at all for that tank. Many corals they got from the US government, confiscated Indopacific shipments that did not comply with CITIES. Probably meaning they have species in there that are illegal for you to have.

But, you never know. If you live near an aquarium, go talk to them. Ask for somebody in Life Support. However, keep in mind that even though you may be able to arrange a better price on something they could elect to stay with existing suppliers to maintain professional relationships that help them in some other way.

--John

John,

I don't think this is 100% accurate. Large public aquaria, at least the one that I volunteer with, do have research trips where specimens are collected and brought back to the exhibit, this is true.

However, if you do talk to them, you will find out that they probably pay a premium for livestock over what you can find in the hobby. I think this has to do with certified distribution channels, collection and quarantine practices, etc. They must exist within a different set of rules and standards than what we as hobbyists encounter.

I am sure there is trading between institutions, but I don't know how often this happens. My guess is not as often as you would think, but this is a guess.

Confiscations from customs is definitely one way local aquaria get specimens, and I am always eager to see what's new! To be honest, what I have seen so far I'm not sure why people would bother trying to bypass customs...

Now, and the cool part, is that what most people don't realize is that you can donate to your local aquarium. It would be great to say "hey, I donated that" and look how great it does in their tank as opposed to yours :lmao: I know that in my area local aquariums love to have donations of quality livestock.

-Mark
 
The majority of the customs confiscations are simply misidentified specimens on the CITES paperwork, common stuff that would make no sense to smuggle, but improperly identified and therefore confiscated.
 
Most confiscations are done by Fish & Wildlife. Customs will not allow clearance of the goods until FWS has released it. At that point, anything that does not have the proper paperwork or if a supplier sent too many corals & the Cites was under the amount sent, gets either re-exported to the country of origin or you can give up the wildlife & will be donated to an institution but is not allowed to enter the US commerce.

Something as simple as an anemone attached to a piece of live rock is subject to refusal if the Cites does not account for the piece of live rock as the anemone is not subject to Cites. You lose both the rock & the anemone. Anything packed in the carton with the refused wildlife you end up losing as well since the only way to obtain the goods is to do a manipulation of the freight under Customs supervision which would never happen in a timely fashion to save the shipment.
 
At C4 in Austin last year this Charles Delbeek answered a similar question and if I remember correctly the Stienhart Aquarium where he is assistant curator will only accept donations from aquarists of corals that are endemic to the seas around the Phillipines (doesn't actually have to be from there just needs to be a species that is found there).

My own experience with Texas State Aquarium is they would only provide an "In Kind" receipt for tax purposes although that could be substantial if your speciman is rare enough: http://i1060.photobucket.com/albums/t442/Timfishone/DBDSinulariafoliataTSAReceipt1.jpg
 
Mark,

Since you did not say anything about the big reef at Steinhart/CAS that I talked about, I would guess that you volunteer at Aquarium on the Bay. I'm not sure if Discovery Kingdom does volunteers, but they might. Did they tell you that they pay a premium for livestock from certified distribution channels with good collection and quarantine practices? Ive never heard of certified channels before.

I can tell you that sources for animals varies with the imagination. Some are bought outright. But that's the exception not the rule. Like Timfish said, they are not likely to buy much from individuals. And I am not taking a guess. I'm not a volunteer but a paid full time employee at an AZA attraction that gets about a million visitors a year. I am head of life support and hold Level III AALSO certification. There are only about three dozen people that hold Level III in the world. For those that don't know what AALSO is, its acronym for "Aquatic Animal Life Support Operators". Here is a link to the about us....

http://new.aalso.org/?page_id=1838

I know everyone on this page. I Know the guy that came up with the AALSO name. He has come to see my facility twice. I've had people from the two largest gallon wise in the US come visit me. And I have been to their house. This year I went to Steinhart after closing and saw everything behind the scenes. You'll see your area is well represented in the AALSO officers. Two from Discovery Kingdom and one from Steinhart. Sorry if you poke around on the site and find it a bit of a mess. They just totally rebuilt it. And all the AALSO people do it for free, they have real jobs and facilities to tend to.

If we were talking about individuals selling chemicals or pumps or animals to large facilities, I was just trying to convey that it wont happen very often. I wont ever be "100% accurate", things vary, lots of institutions and circumstances out there. But I have reasons to know a little about it. And I know a little about aquaria too. I have not been on RC long. But I had a reef tank (crushed coral under gravel filter :))before anybody had heard of one. Then a trickle filter before you could buy bio balls(pink hair curlers). Protein skimmer before you could buy one, among the first to trash the bio balls and so on. Now I'm here to help out with what I know, and learn what I don't know. This is a great place to learn. You guys are pretty bright.

--John
 
The whole public aquaria system is a cross between government bureaucracy and a casual fish keeper. It really depends on the specific aquarium, some will trade corals with you, some get their livestock from confiscations but its hardly ever rare, just not propperly permitted. Nothing live comes in on live rock sitting in a container ship for 4 weeks... So if you have a smaller public aquarium near you you may be able to trade a thing or two. I would never expect them to pay cash for anything ever, there is just no incentive. If your trying to unload a fish chances are its a pest or bully and they don't want it either. There are 100x the hobbyists willing to pay 2-3x as much for livestock(aquariums are very well conected and wild is their marketing)if aqua cultured fish are your market. Of course there are a few exceptions to all of the above.
 
Epicreefer,

Man, I was thinking....well put! And then I saw..."somewhere around 100k gal." That's how he knows. "Somewhere" because its hard to say exactly how many gallons are in a amoeba shaped swimming pool with windows in the side of it.

And your dead on. I think aquariums mostly aren't going to be much interested in livestock from individuals even if its something we would like or think is rare. And if they did want anything rare, its going to be for conservation or education purposes. In a reef tank that the point is its a reef tank (does that make any sense) they just want what appears to a be variety. Plus, some things that a biologist wants because its rare wont be all that inspiring for the rest of us. And they keep it in plastic tubs around back.

I know too. I got nine exhibits from 1k to 73k, somewhere around 270k total. But about to add 3 more with another 120k+ gallons. One of those being around 100k by itself.

--John
 
:lol: so much wrong information here.

First, PAs buy from the same wholesales as the hobby players do. I used to sell to quite a few of them.

CAS has indeed bought a **** ton if fish, along with AZA trades, non AZA trades, research trips and confiscations.

CAS has taken a ton of donations from the local reef club and still does. There is a form you have to fill out. They also have a lot more tanks then the PI tank, thus they take from all regions, if they want it.

Customs does not deal with CITES, USFWS does. Typically confiscations need to be sequestered until the trial. MBA has a room devoted to this.
 
John,

I don't think this is 100% accurate. Large public aquaria, at least the one that I volunteer with, do have research trips where specimens are collected and brought back to the exhibit, this is true.

However, if you do talk to them, you will find out that they probably pay a premium for livestock over what you can find in the hobby. I think this has to do with certified distribution channels, collection and quarantine practices, etc. They must exist within a different set of rules and standards than what we as hobbyists encounter.

I am sure there is trading between institutions, but I don't know how often this happens. My guess is not as often as you would think, but this is a guess.

Confiscations from customs is definitely one way local aquaria get specimens, and I am always eager to see what's new! To be honest, what I have seen so far I'm not sure why people would bother trying to bypass customs...

Now, and the cool part, is that what most people don't realize is that you can donate to your local aquarium. It would be great to say "hey, I donated that" and look how great it does in their tank as opposed to yours :lmao: I know that in my area local aquariums love to have donations of quality livestock.

-Mark

CAS pays the same as everyone else. They are not charged more.

CAS has done quite a few trades with other facilities. Last one I recall was with Long Island, Rich packed it out himself as he was visiting at the time.
 
Mark,
Now I'm here to help out with what I know, and learn what I don't know. This is a great place to learn. You guys are pretty bright.

--John

John,

Well thanks :spin3:

Maybe I interpreted the information the wrong way, but I was told that they do in fact pay more than the hobbyist. It would make sense if this were the case, and maybe "certified channels" is baloney, or maybe what was meant was that they had preferred vendors and thus paid more? I believe you though, you obviously have a background in the industry, and I was offering info I thought was correct.

You know, I realized a while back that if you never say anything or contribute, then you can never be corrected. This is the shortfall of the internet, as anyone can say anything, and thus people can be led to believe crazy things, but I am here to learn and always want to be corrected. That is why I participate here, so many knowledgeable people that can contribute good info. In fact, it seems that posting my incorrect information garnered a response with the correct information. Thanks.

Thanks again for the info, I will double check what was said and report back!

-Mark
 
Mark,

Its cool man. And things vary so much that anything is possible. Me, I'm at a zoo. We don't buy animals from commercial wholesalers. We needed string rays, they came from other zoos and aquariums. And the local marine bio professor took students out and collected some, in conjunction with FWC. The have their own boats at a dock behind the school.

And we provide FWC with about two acres and a couple of office trailers on our property. They keep boats and trucks and marine mammal rescue trailers here. Plus were on the river too. In 2014 were building a 100k gallon manatee rescue facility. All that will belong to me unfortunately. Manatees eat a lot and most of it comes out the other end. But I have experience with mammals dumping buckets of $#!+ in the pool. Were designing for 6, means will have about 10 manatees sometimes.

We do get and give animals for free, even things you could trade for a nice car. But we buy outright also. We bought penguins for $3000 each from SF zoo. (is everybody here from SF?) They are worth about $5k. We got a couple for free and we bought from other zoos. But we don't buy any animals or fish from the normal commercial routes.

We buy equipment and consumables and food from the normal places. Normal for industrial equipment or fish farmers of big swimming pool operators. But we can not buy anything ever from private individuals. Admin wont let us buy a single shrimp unless your a company.

GreshamH
,

You must be a company then. I guess you were meaning you used to be a livestock wholesaler. And now your a frozen stock wholesaler;) So you sell to a ton...by the ton? For us its actually a ton and a half, at a time. Fish, shrimp, squid all comes frozen on pallets. Fresh water food pellet comes from big wholesalers. Almost nothing comes from one guy with a business license.

I would like to refrain from saying where or who I am. You will be able to figure it out eventually though. I want to be able to talk freely so I can talk about companies and equipment. We get the frozen stuff mostly from Bionic Baits. Its a big company with delivery trucks up and down the east coast supplying zoos/aquariums and bait shops. I think it might be a surprise for some that we buy food shrimp from a bait company.

Don Quixote

My point through all of this, the big fish don't buy much from the little fish. But it does happen some. The big fish is big now from trying when he was a little fish. It never hurts to give it a try. When it doesn't work, try again someplace else.

--John
 
Hmm, works at a zoo on a river and deals with Manatees. That narrows it down some :) I expect your on the opposite coast of Fl from me, and a bit north :D
 
A little north... yes. And its manatees next year for me, FWC needs something in my area for rescue purposes. They want to build a dolphin facility here too. I do need to visit the other coast to do some manatee talk. I have already been to Orlando for behind the scenes manatee talk. As far as dolphins go, big lifelong fan. Great a couple weeks back when they kicked some local butt.

--John
 
Nope, I am a feed manufacturer, mainly in the aquaculture, research and public aquarium realm, but we have a popular aquarium feed line as well. What we sell to PA consists of liquid, not frozen. If you bought a metric ton from us, you'd be sitting on it till after you passed away.

Btw, that was too much info, I know exactly where you work... You guys have been a customer for a long time :lol:
 
John,

Well thanks :spin3:

Maybe I interpreted the information the wrong way, but I was told that they do in fact pay more than the hobbyist. It would make sense if this were the case, and maybe "certified channels" is baloney, or maybe what was meant was that they had preferred vendors and thus paid more? I believe you though, you obviously have a background in the industry, and I was offering info I thought was correct.

You know, I realized a while back that if you never say anything or contribute, then you can never be corrected. This is the shortfall of the internet, as anyone can say anything, and thus people can be led to believe crazy things, but I am here to learn and always want to be corrected. That is why I participate here, so many knowledgeable people that can contribute good info. In fact, it seems that posting my incorrect information garnered a response with the correct information. Thanks.

Thanks again for the info, I will double check what was said and report back!

-Mark

CAS uses premium wholesalers for marine fish, you end up paying for quality.. in that respect, you're spot on :). Granted, I am only talking common MO items, not rare or not seen in be trade.

To do business with most PAs you need to be on a preferred vendor list. You don't just walk up and sell to them, there is a process.

Are you a BAR member?
 
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