chaeto + lighting
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dmiannay
Premium Member
That's not my point. The PH will not swing that much at all when the light are out, maybe two or three tenths. Consider those who don't have a fuge/sump under their tanks. They don't alternate lighting since they only have display lights. If the natural daily PH swings they experience aren't bad for their setups then why would it be bad for ours? Just because we have sump/fuge lighting doesn't automatically mean that if we turn all the lights off at the same time the swing will be greater in magnitude than for those with no sump/fuge.
Make sense?
Make sense?
totally....i can't argue a point that i have very little knowledge on....from ALL of my research the most ideal way of setting up a fuge is with 13 hour lighting on a reverse schedule. thats all i can say. my results are great so im not changing. you might have great results with yours too. certain ways i was told are ideal and others aren't and this is what i was told was the most ideal way. this information came from several moderators on another forum so its not like i get my information from bad sources. i also like having a reverse time schedule cause this way i always have a lit tank i can look at.
Plantbrain
Active member
pH variation is not going to influence the tank much and may serve to help even on a diurnal basis as long as it's not too dramatic. Even if the tank is 100% planted with macro/seagrasses like my tanks, I find this causes no issues concerning growth or health.
If you scale this to a reef tank and refugium, then the effects will be even more muted.
I think some folks have suggested their advice based on more theory of "pH stabilty is better" rather than practical application.
We do not use refugiums for maintaining pH, we use it for nutrient removal export and a food source for tangs etc.
Some ideas seem good at first until you try them and find that it does not make any difference. Then you need to find out what does make the difference(s).
My focus is the macro algae and it's health rather than diural pH stability.You need to know what the parameters of this stability are in terms of the macro algae since they are being used to filter the water for the reef tank.
A macro algae will do better if it can handle low nutrient levels and still have good growth.
It's up to the aquarist to keep the biomass at a relatively constant level(hence nutrient removal at a constant), that's something about stability MOST never address.
This will maintain the stability that will allow for the best removal of waste for any given tank.
This is far more important along with Ca++ levels and alk, stable low level nutrients than the pH issue.
Regards,
Tom Barr
If you scale this to a reef tank and refugium, then the effects will be even more muted.
I think some folks have suggested their advice based on more theory of "pH stabilty is better" rather than practical application.
We do not use refugiums for maintaining pH, we use it for nutrient removal export and a food source for tangs etc.
Some ideas seem good at first until you try them and find that it does not make any difference. Then you need to find out what does make the difference(s).
My focus is the macro algae and it's health rather than diural pH stability.You need to know what the parameters of this stability are in terms of the macro algae since they are being used to filter the water for the reef tank.
A macro algae will do better if it can handle low nutrient levels and still have good growth.
It's up to the aquarist to keep the biomass at a relatively constant level(hence nutrient removal at a constant), that's something about stability MOST never address.
This will maintain the stability that will allow for the best removal of waste for any given tank.
This is far more important along with Ca++ levels and alk, stable low level nutrients than the pH issue.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Plantbrain
Active member
I think that it really does not matter in terms of maintaining a low residual of waste.
The reasoning is:
At 24/7 lighting, the export rate is less than the 12/12 lighting, but not a great deal less, still, the less export rate means a more stable nutrient level, so in that respect, you could argue a stable NO3/NH4 level might be better.
But on the other hand, many low nutrient reef algae like NH4 and the nighttime on cycling with a 12/12 split might provide some NH4 to the zooxanthellae, vs NO3. DBS's will also compete for NO3 and skimmers etc.
Generally speaking, I think most of the issues are resolved with 12/12 splits with the refgue being on at night. This keeps heat and electric cost down and the bulbs life down(hence cost) also.
But if the refuge is on during the day, heat and perhaps a little (insignificant??) competition for NH4 between the macros and the reef algae for NH4, which is many times more suitable for algal growth than NO3, you need 8 electrons to convert the NO3 into NH4 which is the form used by all plants.
The issue with NH4:
It's used as fast as it's produced in most planted tanks. So isotopic enrichment and labeling is about the only method that can trace it's path through a system, not a hobby level experiment
No test kit I know of is able to measure the low levels of NH4. One a rare day you might be able to measure some with a Lamott low level kit etc.
NH4 is constantly being produced by all the critters but it's used as fast as it's produced ideally.
It is in my tanks, they never have any NO3, so I add KNO3 to my tanks to supplement this. I could use NH4, but it is a very good nutrient for inducing algae blooms unlike the NO3 and NH4 is a bit like playing with fire.
I've used it extensively, best to get all the NH4/urea from critter waste.
That is why adding too many fish causes an algal bloom in a tank, not PO4, NO3, Fe etc.
PO4 might cause some, but in FW it clearly does not. I am still not convinced or am totally clear about PO4 in a SW macro plant tank, I've had diatom blooms when I've added it in the past. Still, I need to make sure it's not something else and I'm not ready yet to make a generalization there.
NO3, yes, it can be added and will help a NO3 limited tank grow better.
Then other good thing about having enough NO3 and NH4, your PO4 levels will also drop faster.
So the algal issues are different if I were to guess in a FW vs SW plant tank, but how much I'm not sure yet.
Regards,
Tom Barr
The reasoning is:
At 24/7 lighting, the export rate is less than the 12/12 lighting, but not a great deal less, still, the less export rate means a more stable nutrient level, so in that respect, you could argue a stable NO3/NH4 level might be better.
But on the other hand, many low nutrient reef algae like NH4 and the nighttime on cycling with a 12/12 split might provide some NH4 to the zooxanthellae, vs NO3. DBS's will also compete for NO3 and skimmers etc.
Generally speaking, I think most of the issues are resolved with 12/12 splits with the refgue being on at night. This keeps heat and electric cost down and the bulbs life down(hence cost) also.
But if the refuge is on during the day, heat and perhaps a little (insignificant??) competition for NH4 between the macros and the reef algae for NH4, which is many times more suitable for algal growth than NO3, you need 8 electrons to convert the NO3 into NH4 which is the form used by all plants.
The issue with NH4:
It's used as fast as it's produced in most planted tanks. So isotopic enrichment and labeling is about the only method that can trace it's path through a system, not a hobby level experiment
No test kit I know of is able to measure the low levels of NH4. One a rare day you might be able to measure some with a Lamott low level kit etc.
NH4 is constantly being produced by all the critters but it's used as fast as it's produced ideally.
It is in my tanks, they never have any NO3, so I add KNO3 to my tanks to supplement this. I could use NH4, but it is a very good nutrient for inducing algae blooms unlike the NO3 and NH4 is a bit like playing with fire.
I've used it extensively, best to get all the NH4/urea from critter waste.
That is why adding too many fish causes an algal bloom in a tank, not PO4, NO3, Fe etc.
PO4 might cause some, but in FW it clearly does not. I am still not convinced or am totally clear about PO4 in a SW macro plant tank, I've had diatom blooms when I've added it in the past. Still, I need to make sure it's not something else and I'm not ready yet to make a generalization there.
NO3, yes, it can be added and will help a NO3 limited tank grow better.
Then other good thing about having enough NO3 and NH4, your PO4 levels will also drop faster.
So the algal issues are different if I were to guess in a FW vs SW plant tank, but how much I'm not sure yet.
Regards,
Tom Barr
dmiannay
Premium Member
My head is spinning Tom , but I certainly understand and follow your thinking here. I'm going to change the system over to turn on the fuge light at night and off during the day and see how things change over the next month.
From all you've said this certainly will not hurt anything and may be just the right balance.
Thanks for all your informative input!
, but I certainly understand and follow your thinking here. I'm going to change the system over to turn on the fuge light at night and off during the day and see how things change over the next month.From all you've said this certainly will not hurt anything and may be just the right balance.
Thanks for all your informative input!
Plantbrain
Active member
dmiannay said:My head is spinning Tom
Hehe
It makes perfect sense to me
Good luck on it and hopefully with time you'll see some improvement.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Plantbrain
Active member
If something works well for you, stick with it. People's habits also play a big role. But sometimes, after awhile, you can't help but try and tweak something to get a better result out of it.
Sorry for any confusion there.
12/12 split like that should do fine.
Keep the alky and Ca++ up, good current, aeration high and prune it once every 1-3 weeks depending on growth. Constant temps, some NO3 in the system. Ca++ and alky are good at high levels for corals also and a little bit of NO3 is fine also for their algae as well.
Those are generally the main things for a refuge and keeps it running good over the long haul. Maybe 95% of melt and filtering problems can be countered by addressing those parameters listed above. Many add traces for corals so these are often dosed and help the macro's aslo.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Sorry for any confusion there.
12/12 split like that should do fine.
Keep the alky and Ca++ up, good current, aeration high and prune it once every 1-3 weeks depending on growth. Constant temps, some NO3 in the system. Ca++ and alky are good at high levels for corals also and a little bit of NO3 is fine also for their algae as well.
Those are generally the main things for a refuge and keeps it running good over the long haul. Maybe 95% of melt and filtering problems can be countered by addressing those parameters listed above. Many add traces for corals so these are often dosed and help the macro's aslo.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Another reason for the opposite lighting of tank/refuge is the O2 levels. This reason is not often mentioned any more (the pH swings are more often mentioned) but I did read about this when I was researching my tank.
During daylight hours, the plants use CO2 and release O2 and reverse the process at night. I think that is a given that most people know about. The corraline algae (a plant) in our tanks is no different. Because we want as much of the pretty pink and purple algae as possible, some tanks have a large O2 drain during the lights off period that can impact your tank. It was pointed out that most fish deaths seem to happen at night and the theory was lack of O2 due to this. By lighting your refuge (with lots of macro algae) opposite your tank, you cancel this O2 drain.
IMO, how important this is would depend upon your stocking levels and the efficiency of your skimmer.
Vickie
During daylight hours, the plants use CO2 and release O2 and reverse the process at night. I think that is a given that most people know about. The corraline algae (a plant) in our tanks is no different. Because we want as much of the pretty pink and purple algae as possible, some tanks have a large O2 drain during the lights off period that can impact your tank. It was pointed out that most fish deaths seem to happen at night and the theory was lack of O2 due to this. By lighting your refuge (with lots of macro algae) opposite your tank, you cancel this O2 drain.
IMO, how important this is would depend upon your stocking levels and the efficiency of your skimmer.
Vickie
Plantbrain
Active member
With all the aeration, the O2 level are not going to be influenced that much with marine algae unless you have a lot of algae growing. The aeratio will remove any O2 above saturation levels and any below that will also be brought up to close to amibent air levels so that is an insignificant issue for the most part either way you go.
Coralline algae grows slowly and does not produce much O2.
The size of the refuge plays a large role, as does offgassing due to the splashing in overflow of the filter/sump etc also, this will waste any O2 above saturation.
The only good that high DO levels might provide is when the O2 levels are above 100% saturation like that are common in FW planted tanks, too much surface movement, overflow wet drys, or aeration will waste/offgas this extra O2 produced by the plants.
Aeration is good for refuge since it adds plenty of CO2 for the macro's. You can reduce that and use CO2 and add powerheads for current without much surface turbulance etc and try and reduce offgassing if you want, I'd just go the aeration route for a refuge though.
I do not understand how you can have a large O2 drain with all the aeration going on in most folk's tanks, anyone with a skimmer, surface skimming, overflow box splashing etc.
I have a DO meter from pinpoint(personal) and a YSI from the lab, I did not find any variation.
FW Plant tanks go up to 150-180% saturation at days end, but they have faster growth rates than many refuges and the relative% biomass of a fully planted FW vs the relative biomass of a refuge with it's main heterotrophic drain, is far less influenced.
The FW plant tank also have NO aeration, no skimmer, reduced splashing in the over if present(often not, generally use canister filters), some slight surface turbulance is fine, far less current is needed, FW plants are better at lower light than most macros at photosynthesis.
Even with all this focus on reduced offgassing, a FW plant tank is still at 90%-100% O2 when the lights come on again, a reef refuge tank will help slightly with O2, but not much with aeration.
Still, given a choice of when to run it, night is better and certainly not worse, due to some slight O2, some NH4 removal for the macros(less cometition from the main tank algae) reef tank/bacteria.
Gas exchange is something I've dealt with in aquatic systems for awhile now. It is especially looked at in terms of CO2 and O2 in FW planted tank although few do O2 measuring.
Most FW folks focus on their CO2 enrichment and losses trying to achieve the golden 20-30ppm range during the day.
But few FW plant folks measure the O2 even if they can see the O2 like champagne bubbles all over. They know there's plenty of O2 becuse you can see it visibly, with aeration/current etc, you do not see this "pearling" anywhere to the same degree, mainly air bubbles attached.
You can also get a Dissolved O2 meter and see for yourself if you are interested in this effect. Try it for yourself.
Try turning off the skimmer, raising the overflow so that the spilling distance is minimized, reduced surface turbulance, then run a DO meter and see if you can measure consistently for at least a week of good growth and see how much varaiation you have.
Measure near the end of the photocycle and then right when it comes on.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Regards, '
Tom Barr
Coralline algae grows slowly and does not produce much O2.
The size of the refuge plays a large role, as does offgassing due to the splashing in overflow of the filter/sump etc also, this will waste any O2 above saturation.
The only good that high DO levels might provide is when the O2 levels are above 100% saturation like that are common in FW planted tanks, too much surface movement, overflow wet drys, or aeration will waste/offgas this extra O2 produced by the plants.
Aeration is good for refuge since it adds plenty of CO2 for the macro's. You can reduce that and use CO2 and add powerheads for current without much surface turbulance etc and try and reduce offgassing if you want, I'd just go the aeration route for a refuge though.
I do not understand how you can have a large O2 drain with all the aeration going on in most folk's tanks, anyone with a skimmer, surface skimming, overflow box splashing etc.
I have a DO meter from pinpoint(personal) and a YSI from the lab, I did not find any variation.
FW Plant tanks go up to 150-180% saturation at days end, but they have faster growth rates than many refuges and the relative% biomass of a fully planted FW vs the relative biomass of a refuge with it's main heterotrophic drain, is far less influenced.
The FW plant tank also have NO aeration, no skimmer, reduced splashing in the over if present(often not, generally use canister filters), some slight surface turbulance is fine, far less current is needed, FW plants are better at lower light than most macros at photosynthesis.
Even with all this focus on reduced offgassing, a FW plant tank is still at 90%-100% O2 when the lights come on again, a reef refuge tank will help slightly with O2, but not much with aeration.
Still, given a choice of when to run it, night is better and certainly not worse, due to some slight O2, some NH4 removal for the macros(less cometition from the main tank algae) reef tank/bacteria.
Gas exchange is something I've dealt with in aquatic systems for awhile now. It is especially looked at in terms of CO2 and O2 in FW planted tank although few do O2 measuring.
Most FW folks focus on their CO2 enrichment and losses trying to achieve the golden 20-30ppm range during the day.
But few FW plant folks measure the O2 even if they can see the O2 like champagne bubbles all over. They know there's plenty of O2 becuse you can see it visibly, with aeration/current etc, you do not see this "pearling" anywhere to the same degree, mainly air bubbles attached.
You can also get a Dissolved O2 meter and see for yourself if you are interested in this effect. Try it for yourself.
Try turning off the skimmer, raising the overflow so that the spilling distance is minimized, reduced surface turbulance, then run a DO meter and see if you can measure consistently for at least a week of good growth and see how much varaiation you have.
Measure near the end of the photocycle and then right when it comes on.
Regards,
Tom Barr
Regards, '
Tom Barr
Frick-n-Frags
New member
great reading thread!!!!!!!!
By late afternoon in my SPS tank, the corals and some everpresent micros are just sending up a constant stream of bubbles. This is because of 2 250w Iwasakis and 2 100w VHO's on a 55long tank just roasting that puppy. So I definitely see some pearling in my one salt tank
By late afternoon in my SPS tank, the corals and some everpresent micros are just sending up a constant stream of bubbles. This is because of 2 250w Iwasakis and 2 100w VHO's on a 55long tank just roasting that puppy. So I definitely see some pearling in my one salt tank
piercho
New member
Consumption of O2, and it's level of saturation, does not directly affect pH. The demand/supply of CO2 does. Production of CO2 by respiration (consumption) of O2 in a reef tank won't strongly effect pH, IME. IME the method of carbonate buffering has the dominant effect on pH in my tank. Consumption of C02 by primary production has a secondary effect on pH. As a reference, I keep a lot of plants in the display, and use 250W Iwasaki for lighting in the tank and the refugia, and keep a relatively light load of fish. For dimly lit, heavily loaded FOWLR tanks that is not buffered, maybe CO2 production from respiration does dominate pH.
If tank aeration is adequit to keep up with the CO2 demand (limewater) or surplus (calcium reactor) placed on the system by carbonate buffering in the reef tank, IMO it is probably adequit to meet the 02 demand. 02 is more soluble than C02, so it tends to be saturated if aeration is adequit to hold pH near 8.3 in a buffered tank, IMO.
Still, inverse lighting is practical from many standpoints. It does help to moderate pH swing in the tank, and does help to raise the O2 level at night. It helps to moderate the temperature regulation requirements. It lowers the peak electrical current requirement. I can't think of any reason to light the refugia on the same cycle as the tank lights, except that it may save you the cost of a outlet timer.
rsman
New member
your right the consumption of O2 means nothing except when it is replaced with CO2
CO2 greatly effects the pH of our tanks
if in your tank the CO2 level is constant then congrats
if the alk stays the same and the pH changes at all thats because the CO2 has changed, however it got there resperation by fish or algae/plants or the neighbor cooking on the BBQ.
CO2 greatly effects the pH of our tanks
if in your tank the CO2 level is constant then congrats
if the alk stays the same and the pH changes at all thats because the CO2 has changed, however it got there resperation by fish or algae/plants or the neighbor cooking on the BBQ.
wharfrat48
Premium Member
Light temp?
Light temp?
Since the title of the thread is cheato and lighting-- does anyone have any info on the best light temp for cheato?
Thanks
Rich
Light temp?
Since the title of the thread is cheato and lighting-- does anyone have any info on the best light temp for cheato?
Thanks
Rich
Electrobes
Montipora type guy
well thought I would add in my 2 cents. I have been growing chaeto for about 5 months now. I used a regular incandecent grow light for a little bit and heat the heck out of my tank. I decided that a nice compact flourescent would do great. I bought a sylvania 2X32 ballast for cheap and a spare LOA compact flourescent mogul socket bulb at 65 watts for 12 bucks. You need to get a mogul socket attachment. After the set up 5 months ago I run it on 13-14 hour periods, I have to prune my chaeto once a week. I have this set up in a 15G tank/sump and the chaeto is the size of a volleyball. I have nothing else down there except for equipment. Everything is going great, the chaeto loves the bulb and grows fast and well.
