Chasing a Dream in Toronto

[dzrtrataz]

Just like I want to do. So I will be watching.

 

[MK Reefer]

Thanks for the heads up Nikon187. I have few decisions regarding plumbing which will need to be made. Once finalized we’ll size the overflow accordingly, however, I would like to keep it as small as possible without compromising function.....more on this to come.

You want the electrical hole at least 1.5" My 1.5" electrical bulkhead is practically at capacity. Its amazing how many wires go in there. You will also want two 1.5" drains. Never put a large system with one drain. Its just asking for trouble. So basically you will need to plan for 4 holes which will be about 20" x 5" or so.. Maybe you can go 10" x 10"

edit.. didn't see you changed your mind a few posts down LOL

Mike

 

[bioload]

check this out: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1799736

Thanks for the link ptan....one of the many I will be following

 

[bioload]

Just like I want to do. So I will be watching.

That's what is great about this site. Hope we can exchange some ideas :beer:

 

[bioload]

You want the electrical hole at least 1.5" My 1.5" electrical bulkhead is practically at capacity. Its amazing how many wires go in there. You will also want two 1.5" drains. Never put a large system with one drain. Its just asking for trouble. So basically you will need to plan for 4 holes which will be about 20" x 5" or so.. Maybe you can go 10" x 10"

edit.. didn't see you changed your mind a few posts down LOL

Mike

The design has changed somewhat, but I may still be running the electrical through a bulkhead in order to get a cleaner "OCD" installation ....Thanks for the heads up. I plan on all 4 holes being 1.5"

 

[bioload]

Supporting the weight of the tank may be a bit more challenging with an opening to my cold cellar in the basement below.

2 of the joist that will be supporting the weight of the tank are directly over the opening which will not allow for support directly on the foundation.

Still seeking advice on this one........

At the moment there is a door framed with 2x4's at the opening providing additional support to the two joists.

 

[dave.m]

What if you put a heavy cross-brace perpendicular to the floor joists and supported that on either side of the doorway to the cold cellar? You would have to really beef the brace up, either LVL or several 2x10s glued, screwed and tattooed together. A second supported brace running closer to the wall wouldn't go amiss, either.

Dave.M

 

[CreativeGuy]

Out of town this weekend but will talk with you next week to help.
Joe

 

[jpsika08]

Powerhead placement design.

Powerhead placement design.

Bioload, congrats on a great pre-plan idea, one suggestion, if you see how the Vortechs work the type of flow they produce is not straight but more like turbulent, here is a quick video,
<object width="560" height="345"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="345" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Idea of showing this is not to convince you on the Tunzes (I'm an Ecotech user and a really happy one) what I was think is that with your tank design if you place the powerheads within the confined spaces as your sketch above, you may loose lots of this turbulance due to the center overflow,

If you check this thread (Canadian tank also) http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2060476 you can see how he did his overflow with two dryboxes on each side, I think it's better. Just my 0.02 cents and good luck, nice design on everything.

 

[CreativeGuy]

Hi Bioload,

Great JOB on the 3-d illustrative drawing.

I am out of town and do no have access to my engineering books and computer, but here is some simple information to start with. Also, you do need to find a local professional engineer to look at you site and drawings to properly design and verify conditions. I am up late using the hotel computer to respond promptly.

Could you please tell me a few more details and could you confirm the following?
If I assumed that the tank dimensions are 72"x36"x24" high which is 36 cubic feet and a weight of water of 62 lbs/cf = 2,230 pounds. he glass tank on its own I would estimate 400 pounds, live rock at 1#/CF = 300 Pounds, and another 300 pounds for misc, totals about 3,300 pounds.

Your span indicaed is 11'-3" with conventional 2x8s. Will have to check the span tables to see loading criterea.

you indicate that the tank shall be loaded on only 2 joists but a 36" wide tank/stand, joists at 16" on-centre would have the weight distributed on three. TYPICAL floor loading design is for 20 pounds per square foot of dead load, so 11' x 3' = 33 sq ft x 20 = 660 pounds. The conventional floor joists would be substantially undersized.

The header over the door opening as drawn is a single member and does not show joist hangers installed. The typical joist hangers (you can check out and compare the ones you have to similar ones at Home Depot or Lowes and see what they are rated for. It is unlikely they woulod be rated for much more than 500 pounds, so would be also undersized.

The load transfer from the floor system assembly to the top of walls andfurther down to the footings would also require proper bearing distribution. Normally joists require a minimum bearing of 1.75" or so. Beams require a minimum of 3" to 4.5" of bearing. Placement of columns or vertical members would need to rest on top of the poured concrete wall (if concrete block foundation exists, then larer bearing plates are required) or overtop the footings with sufficient bearing plate size.

Someone mentioned utilizing steel I-beams or wood LVL (engineered wood product) and I would agree. Steel is usually a cheaper alternative, but engineer wood can have its advanage of being able to drill through it and fasten to it easier. Either way, the load should be engineered.
Using two beams installed parallel and within the joist spacing (sized appropriately, like a heavier weight 6" pr 8" dependng what you can fit) and four columns (3"x3"x1/4" wall thickness), where the columns are adjacent and secured to the concrete poured walls with bearing plates (min recommended would be 8"x4"x1/2") where they would rest overtop the edge of the footing under the walls. If you are able to rest upon one of he walls, it needs a minimum bearing depth of 4.5", which you may have difficulty installing.

The height you have to work with in the door way will dictate what type of headering could be installed over the doorway. IF you have the clearance, an I-beam could be possibly installed under and perpendicular to the supporting i-beams in the joist cavity with steel columns on each side of the doorway.

Not sure if that gives you the answer you are looking for, but as an engineer, we can not specify or recommond a solution without knowing all the proper information and have evaluated the on-site situation. Why you shall need to consult and obtain a local professional engineer. At least this post may help guide you in what to discuss with your engineer.

 

[bioload]

What if you put a heavy cross-brace perpendicular to the floor joists and supported that on either side of the doorway to the cold cellar? You would have to really beef the brace up, either LVL or several 2x10s glued, screwed and tattooed together. A second supported brace running closer to the wall wouldn't go amiss, either.

Dave.M

Thanks Dave, perpendicular bracing on either sides on the span with additional support of the span appear to be the way its heading. I'll post a few sketches with the additional support once I get a chance to confirm I'm understanding what everyone has suggested.

 

[bioload]

Bioload, congrats on a great pre-plan idea, one suggestion, if you see how the Vortechs work the type of flow they produce is not straight but more like turbulent, here is a quick video,
<object width="560" height="345"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HLkW1-6HbQk?version=3&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="560" height="345" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

Idea of showing this is not to convince you on the Tunzes (I'm an Ecotech user and a really happy one) what I was think is that with your tank design if you place the powerheads within the confined spaces as your sketch above, you may loose lots of this turbulance due to the center overflow,

If you check this thread (Canadian tank also) http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2060476 you can see how he did his overflow with two dryboxes on each side, I think it's better. Just my 0.02 cents and good luck, nice design on everything.

Thanks for the info jpsika08. Plans for flow may change several times before finalized, and the video provides some good information.

I've been bouncing ideas around with a few tank manufactures, both glass and acrylic (yet another decision), and they've been bouncing a few quotes off of me in return.

I share your concern as well regarding the power head placement, and also concerned that it may interfere with the intake of the power head. More research will need to be done.

That "œdrybox" is very interesting......

 

[bioload]

Hi Bioload,

Great JOB on the 3-d illustrative drawing.

I am out of town and do no have access to my engineering books and computer, but here is some simple information to start with. Also, you do need to find a local professional engineer to look at you site and drawings to properly design and verify conditions. I am up late using the hotel computer to respond promptly.

Could you please tell me a few more details and could you confirm the following?
If I assumed that the tank dimensions are 72"x36"x24" high which is 36 cubic feet and a weight of water of 62 lbs/cf = 2,230 pounds. he glass tank on its own I would estimate 400 pounds, live rock at 1#/CF = 300 Pounds, and another 300 pounds for misc, totals about 3,300 pounds.

Your span indicaed is 11'-3" with conventional 2x8s. Will have to check the span tables to see loading criterea.

you indicate that the tank shall be loaded on only 2 joists but a 36" wide tank/stand, joists at 16" on-centre would have the weight distributed on three. TYPICAL floor loading design is for 20 pounds per square foot of dead load, so 11' x 3' = 33 sq ft x 20 = 660 pounds. The conventional floor joists would be substantially undersized.

The header over the door opening as drawn is a single member and does not show joist hangers installed. The typical joist hangers (you can check out and compare the ones you have to similar ones at Home Depot or Lowes and see what they are rated for. It is unlikely they woulod be rated for much more than 500 pounds, so would be also undersized.

The load transfer from the floor system assembly to the top of walls andfurther down to the footings would also require proper bearing distribution. Normally joists require a minimum bearing of 1.75" or so. Beams require a minimum of 3" to 4.5" of bearing. Placement of columns or vertical members would need to rest on top of the poured concrete wall (if concrete block foundation exists, then larer bearing plates are required) or overtop the footings with sufficient bearing plate size.

Someone mentioned utilizing steel I-beams or wood LVL (engineered wood product) and I would agree. Steel is usually a cheaper alternative, but engineer wood can have its advanage of being able to drill through it and fasten to it easier. Either way, the load should be engineered.
Using two beams installed parallel and within the joist spacing (sized appropriately, like a heavier weight 6" pr 8" dependng what you can fit) and four columns (3"x3"x1/4" wall thickness), where the columns are adjacent and secured to the concrete poured walls with bearing plates (min recommended would be 8"x4"x1/2") where they would rest overtop the edge of the footing under the walls. If you are able to rest upon one of he walls, it needs a minimum bearing depth of 4.5", which you may have difficulty installing.

The height you have to work with in the door way will dictate what type of headering could be installed over the doorway. IF you have the clearance, an I-beam could be possibly installed under and perpendicular to the supporting i-beams in the joist cavity with steel columns on each side of the doorway.

Not sure if that gives you the answer you are looking for, but as an engineer, we can not specify or recommond a solution without knowing all the proper information and have evaluated the on-site situation. Why you shall need to consult and obtain a local professional engineer. At least this post may help guide you in what to discuss with your engineer.

Thanks for the quick reply CG!......"Up late on hotel computer", now that's dedication. I really appreciate the time you and everyone else takes to pass along advice on RC

I've heard about a few large tanks with failures and undetermined causes, and I suspect that structure and stand construction may have had a role to play. A problem that I hope to avoid. Recently a friend of a friend had the front of his 8' tank shatter (I assume tempered). There were two 4' stands used in the installation and one had sunk approx 1/8".

The previous sketches are of my home's existing framing. I suspected it would not be sufficient to support the weight of such a large tank. I've been using this calculator which shows the span tables for given dead and live loads, along with the calculations for bending, shear, and deflection. However, the calculations are for a uniform load, and I'm not sure if this would be considered as a uniform load (the stand will be constricted as a "œbox")

I've confirmed with the boss, and the tank will be 72"x36"x24" high, although she has expressed on several occasions "œwhy can't we just build a smaller tank?".....I don't see the dimensions changing, but who knows? If anything it would be reduced, but I would say no smaller than a 72x24x24.

I've confirmed that the tank will be located above three existing floor joist. On the tank side all three joists are currently supported on the sill plate above the foundation wall. I've not confirmed bearing on this side due to the homes HVAC duct getting the way.

On the opposite side a single joist is supported with a 2" bearing on the sill plate and foundation. The other two are connected to the band joist using joist hangers. The drawings don't show a door which is framed in front of the cold cellar also supporting the two joists. I will try to update the drawings this afternoon for the existing framing.

A lot of good information and a great place to start!

 

[bioload]

Still planning

Still planning

Some more plans for the proposed framing using LVL beams. Does anyone have the calculation to determine the maximum load for the plan proposed.

I've sent a few to our engineering department at work as well.....still waiting to hear back.

 

[CreativeGuy]

One suggestion I would recommend is to eliminate the conventional joist member you have sandwiched between the parallam or LVL joist members as combining structural materials of substantially different physical characteristics causes problems and issues of non-compatibility in a a composite assembly. It actually tends to reduce the performance of the assembly (check with the engineering department of the LVL manufacturer to confirm).

It would be better to choose a solid joist member (LVL beam of 3" uniform thickness) rather than two 1.5" joist members placed adjacent to one another. Most engineered wood product manufacturers will provide an engineered review and solution upon request without additional charge. The request may have to be requested through the supplier (lumber yard).

You may wish to specify a maximum deflection of L/800 (a term the engineering department understands) which is a stiff floor assembly with minimum deflection (the amount the floor bends in the middle) relative to the ends.

Good Luck with it. Joe

 

[bioload]

Still planning

Still planning

I downloaded some software that may help with the preliminary designs thanks to some assistance from my a few good folks over at:

http://www.construction-resource.com/ & http://www.diychatroom.com/

Software can be found here: http://www.ilevel.com/services/s_forte.aspx

I've been plugging in some "best guess" information and getting different results from the software.

Under flooring there are three options that can be selected, joist, flush beam, and drop beam. I'm inclined to chose joist??

Next is the deflection criteria Live Load, and Total Load which is set at 480 and 240 respectively.

Joe, Is this where the L/800 deflection you mentioned come into play? Can anyone walk me through the data required? I know that this may seem a bit unorthodox, but I'm very interested to see what solution the software comes out with.

FWIW The following info is under the Deflection Criteria Help:

 

[CreativeGuy]

On the road on cell on way to MACNA

On the road on cell on way to MACNA

The L/800 or minimum I recommend is L/600 for a loading of 250 punds per sf dead load plus live load. Those are the same as referenced as 480 and 240 (not recommended) will have too much deflection (bend) and bounce.

Oh yeah. Joist installation for members and dropped beam for the header over the doorway if you have the room (otherwise special heavy duty hangers will be require at a sizable expense )

Will look later when I can to respond better.

Joe

 

[bioload]

On the road on cell on way to MACNA

I'm so Jealous...hope you have a great time.

Sunil

 

[bioload]

Just to walk through the software I've entered the L/800 into the live load field and proportionally increased the total load field from the original L/240 to the L/400. This information is populated in the "œMember" tab.

Spans and Supports:

Not knowing what an "œOut to Out" or "œCustom Dimensions Locations" is, I selected a clear span of 12'. Under "œBearing Length" I've entered as 5.5" on each side supported on "œBottom" by a SPF stud wall. There are left and right overhang lengths of 3", however, there is 2" of bearing on the foundation wall as well.
Not sure if I should enter this as a total bearing with no overhang length, but will leave as is for now.
I've added under the accessory "œBlocking", however, there is also a 1.25" rim board (on site) that the software will not let me select when there is an overhang value entered.
"œConnecters" are greyed out.

 

[bioload]

Loads:

Occupancy Type: Not selectable with default value of “Residential – Living Areas (40LL)”. I’m okay with the residential part but not to sure how or if the 40LL will effect the calculations.

Type: Options are Point (lb), Point (PLF), Uniform (PLF), Uniform (PSF), Tapered (PLF), and Tapered (PSF). I’ll enter Uniform (PSF).

Full Length: Unchecked

Location: 10” to 6’

This combination of type and location yielded what appears to be an accurate diagram of the conditions.

Dead (0.90): I’m not sure what the 0.90 means. There is a default value of 12.0. I’ll leave this alone based on my understanding of dead loads being the load of the structural member itself.

Live (1.00): This is where it gets interesting with a default value of 40.0 (assuming PSF as selected in Type). Using a weight of 5000lbs (recommended), and a footprint of 6’ x 3’ = 18SF I get 277PSF.

Remaining fields were left a 0.0