Leopard Wrasse
New member
Thanks Russ,
Very informative page.
Very informative page.
cheap bulbs
- Thread starter murfman
- Start date
Crit21
Active member
OK, let's see if we can keep this thread going.
It's good to be skeptical about cheap bulbs (or any piece of equipment), but you have to keep an open mind and be willing to try something new if the risk and cost are minimal. Since no one has left any kind of negative feedback on these bulbs, it appears the risk is probably minimal.
I was skeptical about the dirt cheap Dr. Holmes-Farley formula for supplementing calcium and alkalinity made with ice melt , baking soda and Epsom salts. A year later, I wouldn't give serious thought to $20-a-gallon B-ionic. The Holmes-Farley stuff works exceptionally well, and at just a few cents per month vs. $40 ($20 per gallon x 2) per month, this is one cheap alternative that was worth the risk. Heck, I'm scraping purple coralline from the glass twice a week.
Back to the bulbs. Yes, a lot of stuff from China is complete crap, but I've been using 14,000K bulbs from Taiwan successfully since August ($15-20 including shipping on Ebay). I 'm not cheap--I just hate spending a whole lot more than I think things are worth. I bought them as an experiment, fully expecting them to be complete crap. I was very surprised. As with any 14,000K bulb, the aesthetics are much better than 6,500K-10,000K's. However, a lot of my drab SPS have all colored-up beautifully since then, and the growth rate is great. My 2 crocea, zoanthid farm, LPS, ricordia and shrooms also love them. I'm fragging roight and left.
There are times, though, when you have to wonder why an aquarium bulb costs $100, when a common MH street bulb, which is pretty much identical internally and is made to operate in harsh temperature and humidity ranges, costs just a few bucks. The manufacturing process of both types is identical. The only significant difference between these bulbs is the material placed inside the bulb that emits light when energized. I can't believe that trace amounts of anything used in bulbs is all that expensive. Maybe scale of production is a factor, but not enough for price to be an order of magnitude higher. Even the ballasts for outdoor MH and reef MH bulbs are the same. The magnetic ballasts (e.g., M57, M58, etc.) that operate these bulbs are identical to magnetic ballasts used for reef tanks--a transformer and a capacitor.
I think the preference for name-brand bulbs comes down to a couple factors: 1) what the market will bear based on supply and demand; and 2) perceived value by the users. A lot of people assume that the more expensive the bulb, the better it MUST be. I'm not sure all of the name brand bulbs are that much better, particularly since you can find both fans and opponents of each manufacturer (e.g., the XM discussion in this thread). In the case of the Chinese/Taiwanese bulbs, time will tell, but so far, so good for me. At this rate, even if I replace them at 6-month intervals, I'll be $hundreds ahead at the end of a year. I know my wife appreciates my efforts to cut costs.
My 2, 3 and 4 cents (or maybe $15) worth.
It's good to be skeptical about cheap bulbs (or any piece of equipment), but you have to keep an open mind and be willing to try something new if the risk and cost are minimal. Since no one has left any kind of negative feedback on these bulbs, it appears the risk is probably minimal.
I was skeptical about the dirt cheap Dr. Holmes-Farley formula for supplementing calcium and alkalinity made with ice melt , baking soda and Epsom salts. A year later, I wouldn't give serious thought to $20-a-gallon B-ionic. The Holmes-Farley stuff works exceptionally well, and at just a few cents per month vs. $40 ($20 per gallon x 2) per month, this is one cheap alternative that was worth the risk. Heck, I'm scraping purple coralline from the glass twice a week.
Back to the bulbs. Yes, a lot of stuff from China is complete crap, but I've been using 14,000K bulbs from Taiwan successfully since August ($15-20 including shipping on Ebay). I 'm not cheap--I just hate spending a whole lot more than I think things are worth. I bought them as an experiment, fully expecting them to be complete crap. I was very surprised. As with any 14,000K bulb, the aesthetics are much better than 6,500K-10,000K's. However, a lot of my drab SPS have all colored-up beautifully since then, and the growth rate is great. My 2 crocea, zoanthid farm, LPS, ricordia and shrooms also love them. I'm fragging roight and left.
There are times, though, when you have to wonder why an aquarium bulb costs $100, when a common MH street bulb, which is pretty much identical internally and is made to operate in harsh temperature and humidity ranges, costs just a few bucks. The manufacturing process of both types is identical. The only significant difference between these bulbs is the material placed inside the bulb that emits light when energized. I can't believe that trace amounts of anything used in bulbs is all that expensive. Maybe scale of production is a factor, but not enough for price to be an order of magnitude higher. Even the ballasts for outdoor MH and reef MH bulbs are the same. The magnetic ballasts (e.g., M57, M58, etc.) that operate these bulbs are identical to magnetic ballasts used for reef tanks--a transformer and a capacitor.
I think the preference for name-brand bulbs comes down to a couple factors: 1) what the market will bear based on supply and demand; and 2) perceived value by the users. A lot of people assume that the more expensive the bulb, the better it MUST be. I'm not sure all of the name brand bulbs are that much better, particularly since you can find both fans and opponents of each manufacturer (e.g., the XM discussion in this thread). In the case of the Chinese/Taiwanese bulbs, time will tell, but so far, so good for me. At this rate, even if I replace them at 6-month intervals, I'll be $hundreds ahead at the end of a year. I know my wife appreciates my efforts to cut costs.
My 2, 3 and 4 cents (or maybe $15) worth.
murfman
New member
I am a cheap sob, I'd rather spend the coin on livestock than have to put it into the other aspects of the tank, unless it is totally nescessary. In this case, I think the reefoptic bulbs are a viable alternative, at 1/2 the cost of what I was paying. Even the 12.5k Hellios bulbs are $50+ now. At $30 a bulb. I think that is a big savings. Who knows, in time the even cheaper Chinese bulbs may be the way to go. The only negative I have been able to find is that they spectrum shift around 4 months. That is 3 bulbs a year at $10, same as one reefoptic. If the RO lasts a full year then there is no cost savings.
Todd, Grimm Reefer, in RMRC has offered the use of his par meter to anyone that wants to test these bulbs.
Todd, Grimm Reefer, in RMRC has offered the use of his par meter to anyone that wants to test these bulbs.
Crit21
Active member
Murf, how significant was the shift with the cheapest bulbs? Did they say anything about the impact on reef health, or shock when the bulbs were replaced with new ones?
The Reefoptics seller never did answer my question about where the RO bulbs are manufactured. I'm taking that as an indication that they probably are. We need to look at the full thread(s) regarding his bulbs and see what the consensus is, as far as performance goes.
The Reefoptics seller never did answer my question about where the RO bulbs are manufactured. I'm taking that as an indication that they probably are. We need to look at the full thread(s) regarding his bulbs and see what the consensus is, as far as performance goes.
Crit21
Active member
Murf, how significant was the shift with the cheapest bulbs? Did they say anything about the impact on reef health, or shock when the bulbs were replaced with new ones?
The Reefoptics seller never did answer my question about where the RO bulbs are manufactured. I'm taking that as an indication that they probably are. We need to look at the full thread(s) regarding his bulbs and see what the consensus is, as far as performance goes.
The Reefoptics seller never did answer my question about where the RO bulbs are manufactured. I'm taking that as an indication that they probably are. We need to look at the full thread(s) regarding his bulbs and see what the consensus is, as far as performance goes.
murfman
New member
I read the whole thread and did not see anything negative.
As for bulbs, I have never done anything except plug and play with any bulbs I have changed. I have gone from 6500k to 10k to 12.5k back to10k with no issues. Using my Army logic here, doesn't the sun get hidden by clouds? Days of no direct sunlight because of hurricanes? Most of us only burn our MH at around 8 hours or so. Mine come on at 10:30 and go off at 6:30.
aquaman2000
In Memoriam
I have 400w 15,000K XM bulbs on my 125, when they first went on I was rather impressed. However now that they are 4 or 5 months old I can see them fading fast. When I see my corals I other tanks with Ushio or Phoenix bulbs I am always more impressed with the coral. If you ask me the extra money is well spent. It is like comparing a Yugo to a Honda, sure it works for a while but ultimately it is a waste of time and money in comparison to the premium brands. Why are they so cheap? Remember the old saying you get what you pay for? I myself am about to upgrade to Ushio bulbs and I can’t wait!!!
Crit21
Active member
Murf, did you notice that two of the original contributors to that thread in Sept 2006 still have only 1 post each? That tactic is used a lot on the Internet by sellers, including Ebay, to pump up a seller's rating. They create multiple profiles, then post feedback to themselves. On Ebay, they auction stuff off, and using their alternative account ID, submit a bid so high they're guaranteed to win. That way they can post positive feedback to themselves.
Anyway, I think that the rest of the posts in that thread are worth reading--assuming you can detgermine which of the 3 sellers' bulbs they're talking about. They're all mixed together.
Anyway, I think that the rest of the posts in that thread are worth reading--assuming you can detgermine which of the 3 sellers' bulbs they're talking about. They're all mixed together.
aquaman2000
In Memoriam
you would know, you look at it all the time... and yes 3
reefkoi
Premium Member
I agree ushio are supposed to last the longest and hold spectrum, I chatted with a guy from ushio about why they are different, he said they are the bulbs with the white coating on the element, you can tell the ushios from other brands from this distinct white coating. I cant remember what it did but if I remember correct it had something do do with longevity.
C
C
murfman
New member
I still think that two reefoptics, at $30 that last 6 months are cheaper than 1 Ushio that might last a year. JMHO though.
Who actually can see a difference, on a given day, of their lights? How do you know, without the use of expensive testing equipment, if your bulbs need to be replaced? I have heard that you should replace them at about a year, just because. I have had one of my super actinics for 3 years now. The only reason I replaced the other was that I busted it.
Who actually can see a difference, on a given day, of their lights? How do you know, without the use of expensive testing equipment, if your bulbs need to be replaced? I have heard that you should replace them at about a year, just because. I have had one of my super actinics for 3 years now. The only reason I replaced the other was that I busted it.
aquaman2000
In Memoriam
Not necessarily, for example any store in town can sell an Ushio 150W 14,000K HQI bulb for $70 or maybe a little less. There for at the one year mark you are only down $10.00. Then take into account that Ushio bulbs will go a little longer than 12 months. You are now even on price and you saved yourself the time and haste of replacing your bulbs mid year. Furthermore with a better quality bulb you will see better coral coloration and a better growth rate just to touch a few benefits. We spend a great deal of time and money on our aquariums, we all want to have our tanks look there best. There are viable ways of saving money and cutting corners, but we seem to all say the same thing, if your going to do it, do right. Some things are not worth cutting corners.
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COreefer
Premium Member
You also add consistencty to your tank rather than having to acclimate corals to new bulbs every 6 mos.
BTW, you can find the Ushio SE 250's for around $60 a piece...just have to wait for sales to pop up.
I will add this...bulb shopping and deciding on them is not easy. The best thing to do is find a bulb you like and stick with it...the grass isn't always greener.
BTW, you can find the Ushio SE 250's for around $60 a piece...just have to wait for sales to pop up.
I will add this...bulb shopping and deciding on them is not easy. The best thing to do is find a bulb you like and stick with it...the grass isn't always greener.
Crit21
Active member
But are the bulbs bluer? :lol:
All I know is that everything in my tank is either growing better, or has colored up better, or both since I switched. It could also be the fact that I was using XM 10,000K's supplemented by 260W actinic PCs before I switched to just 14,00K's and no PCs. Who knows?
murfman
New member
Eric D and I had a good conversation about bulbs when I picked up my Rics. What we need is a Par meter and whatever tool measures the spectrum. I know Todd has 3 different bulbs on his tank so I will use him as an example. You give the bulb 30 days to burn in and then take a Par and spectrum measurement every month, on the same day and time as the 1st measurement on day 31. Do this for a year or until the bulb burns out and record the measurements. Replace the bulbs with the same type and wattage and repeat. Yes, this would take a long time (possibly 2 years) but we would have some pretty descent data on longevity and spectrum shift for a particular brand, K and W of bulb. Sanjay does this to an extent, but not over the long term.
Who decided that 1 year was the max on a bulb? Where is the scientific proof that a bulb is spent after a year? I have heard to replace them at 9 months. Eric L and I had this discussion on bulb replacment about a year ago. I really wish we had the tools to set up this experiment, it could even be on an empty tank.
Who decided that 1 year was the max on a bulb? Where is the scientific proof that a bulb is spent after a year? I have heard to replace them at 9 months. Eric L and I had this discussion on bulb replacment about a year ago. I really wish we had the tools to set up this experiment, it could even be on an empty tank.
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