Check out my new DIY power back up! (400k of pics)
- Thread starter Playfair
- Start date
A bump on the road.....
I've tested out the backup system running an Ampmaster without any problem. Now I also added two heaters to run off of it. It works for about 5-10 min, then the fuse on my outlet box blew.
Total load on the circuit is as follows using an ammeter for load test:
Ampmaster: 112W continous/ 286W start
Ebo Jager Heaters: each 156W; total 312W
Temp controllers: each 7W; total 14W
pH monitor: 5W
When adding all the watts together, it is 443W or 617W, depending on whether I am considering the startup on Ampmaster. My inverter is capable of outputing 600W continous and 1800W peak. So, I'm safe within this range.
The glass fuse I have on is 3A @ 250V. At 120V, is that approximately 5A-6A? Definitely correctly me on this....if it is 5A, the fuse should be capable of passing at least 600W through without blowing?
It doesn't blow right away, but after about 5 min. I had the Ampmaster running first for 1 min, then I plug all the rest of the equipment into the circuit. At startup, the pump takes a lot more wattage to run. I let it stabilze for a bit first, so total wattage running through should only be 443W, isn't it? I don't understand what the fuse kept blowing. Should I just up-size the fuse? I want to get all your feedback before I set something on fire!:smokin:
I've tested out the backup system running an Ampmaster without any problem. Now I also added two heaters to run off of it. It works for about 5-10 min, then the fuse on my outlet box blew.
Total load on the circuit is as follows using an ammeter for load test:
Ampmaster: 112W continous/ 286W start
Ebo Jager Heaters: each 156W; total 312W
Temp controllers: each 7W; total 14W
pH monitor: 5W
When adding all the watts together, it is 443W or 617W, depending on whether I am considering the startup on Ampmaster. My inverter is capable of outputing 600W continous and 1800W peak. So, I'm safe within this range.
The glass fuse I have on is 3A @ 250V. At 120V, is that approximately 5A-6A? Definitely correctly me on this....if it is 5A, the fuse should be capable of passing at least 600W through without blowing?
It doesn't blow right away, but after about 5 min. I had the Ampmaster running first for 1 min, then I plug all the rest of the equipment into the circuit. At startup, the pump takes a lot more wattage to run. I let it stabilze for a bit first, so total wattage running through should only be 443W, isn't it? I don't understand what the fuse kept blowing. Should I just up-size the fuse? I want to get all your feedback before I set something on fire!:smokin:
Zephrant
Premium Member
Ermin said:
The 3 Amp is at ANY voltage, the 250 just means that is the MAXIMUM voltage the fuse WON'T short at. (Max open circuit voltage it can keep open, when it blows without arcing).
Therefore- the fuse will blow at 3+ amps, even at 120 volts. Depending if it is a fast-blow or a slow-blow fuse, it could go in a fraction of a second, or 30 seconds or longer, also depending on the exact amps going though it.
My guess is that you need at least a 7 amp slow blow fuse, and might be able to use a 10 amp. Fuses are supposed to be oversized by 20% or so.
HTH-
Zeph
Zeph,
Thanks! That's where my mistake is at... 250V. I think my glass fuse is the quick type. It has a approx. 1/64" filament inside. Slow blow has a thicker filament, correct? Something of 1/8" or 1/4" even?
Besides quick-blow fuse = fraction of a second and slow-blow = 30 sec....what are the differences between the two types of fuses? I would assume a quick-blow to be better? In 30 sec of overload, a fire can start. If it is instant, not much damage will be done. But I'm sure there are other benefits in using a slow-blow fuse. Can you clarify this for me? Thanks again!
Thanks! That's where my mistake is at... 250V. I think my glass fuse is the quick type. It has a approx. 1/64" filament inside. Slow blow has a thicker filament, correct? Something of 1/8" or 1/4" even?
Besides quick-blow fuse = fraction of a second and slow-blow = 30 sec....what are the differences between the two types of fuses? I would assume a quick-blow to be better? In 30 sec of overload, a fire can start. If it is instant, not much damage will be done. But I'm sure there are other benefits in using a slow-blow fuse. Can you clarify this for me? Thanks again!
Zephrant
Premium Member
Sure-
A fast blow fuse has a lower mass, so it heats up a "blows" faster. A slow-blow fuse can have a ceramic center, with the wire wrapped around it. This acts as a heat sink, and keeps the element from heating up as fast.
Note that in a direct short, a LOT of amps flow, and EITHER fuse will blow in a fraction of a second. The slow blow is useful for surviving the (softer) spikes that a starting motor can cause, without popping.
Fast-blow fuses are normally used for electronics, where you are trying to protect the electronics from destroying itself. (Even though all fuses are insanely slow compared to the nanosecond electronic rates...).
So to recap, if you are running a motor, a slow blow that is rated at least at it's peak draw, or about 20% above it's normal draw (whichever is higher) should provide decent protection.
A fast blow fuse has a lower mass, so it heats up a "blows" faster. A slow-blow fuse can have a ceramic center, with the wire wrapped around it. This acts as a heat sink, and keeps the element from heating up as fast.
Note that in a direct short, a LOT of amps flow, and EITHER fuse will blow in a fraction of a second. The slow blow is useful for surviving the (softer) spikes that a starting motor can cause, without popping.
Fast-blow fuses are normally used for electronics, where you are trying to protect the electronics from destroying itself. (Even though all fuses are insanely slow compared to the nanosecond electronic rates...).
So to recap, if you are running a motor, a slow blow that is rated at least at it's peak draw, or about 20% above it's normal draw (whichever is higher) should provide decent protection.
JEMichael IV
New member
Have any of you thought of using the Optima Gell Cell batteries? These dont contain Acid, and could be mounted upsidedown if needbe and since there is no acid I would assume there would be no fumes? Maybe I am wrong. I am looking into doing this and I have a couple of these batteries from my last stereo system.
Belkin 800VA
Belkin 800VA
This one only powered my 55Gallon Reef for about 25 minutes.
Belkin 800VA
I've got a 65watt hood and 2 poweredge 402s the switch back and forth for wave making. I think it's a Mag 500 (?) in my Wet/Dry and i just added a little skimmer.
I didn't think 25 minutes was that bad for the whole system, but I was expecting at least 1 hour. I've got bad power in my neighborhood, so I left the whole thing hooked up to the UPS.
I may get another one and seperate some of the equipment between them, at least it will last longer. I think
Belkin 800VA
This one only powered my 55Gallon Reef for about 25 minutes.
Belkin 800VA
I've got a 65watt hood and 2 poweredge 402s the switch back and forth for wave making. I think it's a Mag 500 (?) in my Wet/Dry and i just added a little skimmer.
I didn't think 25 minutes was that bad for the whole system, but I was expecting at least 1 hour. I've got bad power in my neighborhood, so I left the whole thing hooked up to the UPS.
I may get another one and seperate some of the equipment between them, at least it will last longer. I think
fuse question for DIY backup
fuse question for DIY backup
I'm building playfair's DIY battery back-up today. I've got the same relay (120VAC 4pdt). I'm planning on running 5 things off of it: Heater (250watt), DIY wavetimer (Reeftech/MJ powerhead), 5volt DIY powersupply (to run 555-timer circuit in the DIY wavetimer), Mag7 return pump, airpump.
I've got a 500watt Cobra HG inverter (w/rebate it only cost me $40). I've opened it up, so that I can put the third leg of the relay in series with the inverter's power switch.
For the fourth leg of the relay, I was thinking I would put a small airpump that I had lying around in series. Then, when the power goes out, the small airpump will turn on automatically for oxygenation -- since my skimmer won't be running during power outages.
QUESTION: I guess I'm going to put a 5amp slow-blow fuse in series on the output. Do I put the fuse on the neutral or the hot side? Or doesn't it matter? Maybe I should go with a 7amp fuse?
fuse question for DIY backup
I'm building playfair's DIY battery back-up today. I've got the same relay (120VAC 4pdt). I'm planning on running 5 things off of it: Heater (250watt), DIY wavetimer (Reeftech/MJ powerhead), 5volt DIY powersupply (to run 555-timer circuit in the DIY wavetimer), Mag7 return pump, airpump.
I've got a 500watt Cobra HG inverter (w/rebate it only cost me $40). I've opened it up, so that I can put the third leg of the relay in series with the inverter's power switch.
For the fourth leg of the relay, I was thinking I would put a small airpump that I had lying around in series. Then, when the power goes out, the small airpump will turn on automatically for oxygenation -- since my skimmer won't be running during power outages.
QUESTION: I guess I'm going to put a 5amp slow-blow fuse in series on the output. Do I put the fuse on the neutral or the hot side? Or doesn't it matter? Maybe I should go with a 7amp fuse?
Well... Things are getting a little bit more expensive than I thought.
For the same charger playfair used cost me $30.
For a battery... $80.
Since they don't rate batteries in amper-hours (ah) anymore, I was a little confused about which to buy. Thankfully, I went to this place called the Battery Warehouse in Reisterstown, MD, where there was this guy who knew everything there was to know:
For a ROUGH approx of a battery's amper-hours:
ah = crank / 5.25
My battery's crank was 625, so my ah=625/5.25 = 119ah.
I should finish hooking up the relay and building the rest of the contraption tonight. I'll let you know how I make out. Keep your fingers crossed!
For the same charger playfair used cost me $30.
For a battery... $80.
Since they don't rate batteries in amper-hours (ah) anymore, I was a little confused about which to buy. Thankfully, I went to this place called the Battery Warehouse in Reisterstown, MD, where there was this guy who knew everything there was to know:
For a ROUGH approx of a battery's amper-hours:
ah = crank / 5.25
My battery's crank was 625, so my ah=625/5.25 = 119ah.
I should finish hooking up the relay and building the rest of the contraption tonight. I'll let you know how I make out. Keep your fingers crossed!
RELAY CIRCUIT CONNECTION
RELAY CIRCUIT CONNECTION
Hi Playfair,
I read your posting on the DIY UPS with interest and I want to build one. I managed to buy one relay switch (Brand: Omron, model: MK3P-S which is the same as MK3P-I, S) which is very hard to find one in Singapore. But being not an 'electrical' person, I have no idea on how to connect the various wire to the switch. I downloaded the switch specs from Omron web site but it did not mention anything about the connection.
The switch comes with 11 pins and according to the store person, it is a 3PDT type. Would you be so kind to share with me what needs to be connected to the 11 pins. Based on your circuit schematic posted to Mobert dated 18 Feb 2002, if you could number the dots, that will be great. Thanks in advance for your help.
RELAY CIRCUIT CONNECTION
Hi Playfair,
I read your posting on the DIY UPS with interest and I want to build one. I managed to buy one relay switch (Brand: Omron, model: MK3P-S which is the same as MK3P-I, S) which is very hard to find one in Singapore. But being not an 'electrical' person, I have no idea on how to connect the various wire to the switch. I downloaded the switch specs from Omron web site but it did not mention anything about the connection.
The switch comes with 11 pins and according to the store person, it is a 3PDT type. Would you be so kind to share with me what needs to be connected to the 11 pins. Based on your circuit schematic posted to Mobert dated 18 Feb 2002, if you could number the dots, that will be great. Thanks in advance for your help.
Playfair
Premium Member
Re: fuse question for DIY backup
Re: fuse question for DIY backup
Glad to see people are still using this thread! I don't get over hear much when I'm not building something! lol
Good idea for using the 4th leg of the relay! You could also use one of the other outlets on the inverter for "emergency only" power.
As far as the battery, last I checked, all deep cycle are rated in Ah... Yours sounds like a starting battery; not the best choice, as they do not like to be discharged, even if the capacity is adequate.
Techy, I think you should find someone who will understand the schematic and draw you a new one for your particular relay. PM me if you want to send the dwgs of yours and I'll give it a shot.
I still have yet to get real use out of this thing!
One note on deep cycle battery maintenance that I've run across is that they need to be slightly "over charged" (bubbled) every few months for an hour or so to prevent the acid from stratifying, which would reduce their capacity and life. I'm trying to make a point of running the backup long enough to partly discharge the battery, then charging it off a "heavy duty" car charger with deep cycle capabilities once in a while.
To figure out run time using a 100Ah battery as an example: P=IV
12V@100Ah=1200Whrx90%(inverter efficiency)=1080Whrs.
So, if you have a 100W pump, 1080/100=10.8 hrs.
At least, I hope this is how it works!
Re: fuse question for DIY backup
Glad to see people are still using this thread! I don't get over hear much when I'm not building something! lol
The fuse should go on the hot (black) wire. It is not used to protect the inverter (safety is built in), but instead the relay. Since the contacts are only rated at 5A, we need to guarantee they don't see more than that with an easilly replaceable fuse.Russ said:
Good idea for using the 4th leg of the relay! You could also use one of the other outlets on the inverter for "emergency only" power.
As far as the battery, last I checked, all deep cycle are rated in Ah... Yours sounds like a starting battery; not the best choice, as they do not like to be discharged, even if the capacity is adequate.
Techy, I think you should find someone who will understand the schematic and draw you a new one for your particular relay. PM me if you want to send the dwgs of yours and I'll give it a shot.
I still have yet to get real use out of this thing!
One note on deep cycle battery maintenance that I've run across is that they need to be slightly "over charged" (bubbled) every few months for an hour or so to prevent the acid from stratifying, which would reduce their capacity and life. I'm trying to make a point of running the backup long enough to partly discharge the battery, then charging it off a "heavy duty" car charger with deep cycle capabilities once in a while.
To figure out run time using a 100Ah battery as an example: P=IV
12V@100Ah=1200Whrx90%(inverter efficiency)=1080Whrs.
So, if you have a 100W pump, 1080/100=10.8 hrs.
At least, I hope this is how it works!
DIY UPS
DIY UPS
Hi Playfair,
Thanks alot for your prompt response. I managed to figure out all the 11 pins connections my self (with the help from the sales person who sold me the relay switch) via the 'see-thru' casing of the switch. Initial testig of the switch (ie. energizing it, supplying AC current for output and placing an AC led light for testing) proved that my connections are correct. The next phase of the test is to link the inverter's AC supply to the switch and the cut-over of the AC supply from AC wall outlet to the inverter.
Couple of questions.
1. Are all regular car batteries has about the same Ah ratings (not sure I'm using the correct terminology; I'm referring to the rating where how much energy a battery can stored. For eg. an AA size battery can range from 600 mAh to 2000 mAh) ?
I intend to use a regular car battery (12V, 15 amps). Those that need to top up with distill water type. I read about your comments about, such battery is not suitable for this job since car battery does not like to be discharged in this manner.
2. If you can explain a little on what is a 'deep-charge' battery, that will be great. Such battery is usually for what purpose (eg. for boat, etc.) ?
Thanks in advance for your help.
best rgds,
DIY UPS
Hi Playfair,
Thanks alot for your prompt response. I managed to figure out all the 11 pins connections my self (with the help from the sales person who sold me the relay switch) via the 'see-thru' casing of the switch. Initial testig of the switch (ie. energizing it, supplying AC current for output and placing an AC led light for testing) proved that my connections are correct. The next phase of the test is to link the inverter's AC supply to the switch and the cut-over of the AC supply from AC wall outlet to the inverter.
Couple of questions.
1. Are all regular car batteries has about the same Ah ratings (not sure I'm using the correct terminology; I'm referring to the rating where how much energy a battery can stored. For eg. an AA size battery can range from 600 mAh to 2000 mAh) ?
I intend to use a regular car battery (12V, 15 amps). Those that need to top up with distill water type. I read about your comments about, such battery is not suitable for this job since car battery does not like to be discharged in this manner.
2. If you can explain a little on what is a 'deep-charge' battery, that will be great. Such battery is usually for what purpose (eg. for boat, etc.) ?
Thanks in advance for your help.
best rgds,
