Chevron Tang

[hllywd]

Well, I've gone from this:

To this:

In about ten days. The tank has a lot of kenya trees, a couple mushrooms, the caulerpa, some chaeto, and a brittle star. That is the extent of the livestock that has been in the tank for over a year, no fish, nothing else. It has a very good appetite and is eating almost anything I throw at him. Mysis, prime reef, reef plankton, flake, pellet, even eating from my wife's hand. It looks to me like HLLE. I'll test all the kits I have tonight, but as far as I know all my parameters are good. This is a 58 with a TidePool II wetdry with no BioWheel installed it was simply a sump until I added three trays of carbon when I first noticed what looked like some nipped fins.

Does anything jump out at anyone? Are the kenya trees a possibility? I've just been hanging onto this tank growing caulerpa with no real intent for any further use than possible QT before introducing anything to my 120, which I haven't for almost 2 years... (other than frags).

Ideas? (quick before ehe goes further down hill!!!)

TIA Tim

 

[kinlayan]

Are you using activated carbon it has been implicated in some hlle cases? Something in the chevron's enviroment is causing it either something in the water or something it is not getting in the food, i would supplement with vitamin soaked nori especially in iodine, vitamin c and fatty acid supplements

 

[kinlayan]

sorry just reread and you said it began after you added carbon to the tank, remove the carbon and do a water change, the carbon fines could be contributing to the condition, the reason why this occurs im not altogether sure on maybe someone else knows?

 

[hllywd]

I reread that myself and i wrote it a little different than I intended. I added the carbon after I first noticed the fin damage progressing, a few days ago now. I'll definately take it out, but had never heard of the connection until now. I did have some visible cloudiness since I didn't rinse it as well as I first thought.

Like I said,he eats like a pig and otherwise doesn't seem stressed, I even wondered if it came from someone else's tank as tame as it is... The shop says no. I guess one thing is, does HLLE affect the fins?

I've been adding some garlic with the food I've been giving, but will probably not have any Selcon until Saturday. I guess this is what I get for being protective of my main tank and keeping this as a QT. Everything else I've always added direct.

 

[kinlayan]

i would add vitamin c and selcon to his food and yes hlle does affect the fins not only the lateral lines, make sure he gets alot of seaweed foods , you may be able to reverse the condition.

I would make his diet 70% marine vegetable matter and 30% protein at this point until you see it reversing

 

[kinlayan]

also sometimes the only thing that seems to help this condition is transferring the fish to another aquarium.

 

[hllywd]

Well I won't be home until tomorrow morning. My old 30 has been running with only a powerhead for a long time... I'm a master procrastinator No lights or anything so the rock and sand are well cooked. I have done a couple water changes though the months, and did a couple more in the last couple days cleaning it up pretty good. It has about 50 lbs of rock and nothing more visible than a few feather dusters left.
I'll get him out of the 58 in the morning and get some Selcon Saturday assuming I can find some. What about dosing vitamin C? I've heard of it for corals, but never really looked into it. One thing is he doesn't seem to like nori, about the only thing he won't eat... I did start adding garlic a couple days ago.
I'll search and read some more. I'm hopeful I can bring him back, he started out as a gorgeous fish...
Tim

 

[kinlayan]

vitamin c will definitely help ,soak his pellets in it , if he isnt eating nori

 

[hllywd]

Nope, won't touch nori. Got the switch done and he's pretty spooked right now. I'll try to feed him later this afternoon when I get back home. Still eating before I made the switch , but he looks rough. Thanks for you help kinlayan.

Tim

 

[JHemdal]

The scalloping on the fins sure looks like the atypical HLLE that yellow tangs get, but I've never seen a chevron get that (but then I haven't worked with nearly as many chevrons as I have yellows). Carbon dust is one cause of this. You mention that you added the carbon after you saw the first symptoms, but what if the first ripped fin symptoms were from another cause and the carbon caused the "real deal" to start up?

In these acute quick onset (versus chronic / slow onset) cases, I don't see dietary problems being involved at all, and changing the diet is unlikely to cause any improvment. One very common remedy is to move the fish to a new tank, one that has not had a history of HLLE.

Here is a link to a HLLE survey I compiled. Be aware that this is raw data, and it is tricky to work with data like this

http://microcosmaqx.typepad.com/jay_hemdal/2009/02/hlle-survey.html

I've taken a lot of hits about my theory of carbon dust being one important trigger for HLLE, but I'm still firmly convinced that it is a proven cause, and nobody has been able to refute it....

Jay Hemdal

 

[hllywd]

Thanks for the input Jay. I'm going to try to make it to Columbus to day to get some Selcon. Nothing like that in Findlay. Don't know how it's going to work out, he's still kicking, but looks really bad, and hasn't come out of hiding since the switch. I got some VC yesterday and started that too. I can tell you he did get a pretty good dose of carbon dust. I was in a hurry and thought I had it rinsed well and it wasn't. I looked to me like the slope got really slippery then...

Looking at your link, I'm convince it's HLLE only my chevron looks much worse than your pic. I guess now the trick is to bring him back.

Thanks again,
Tim

 

[1geo]

Go to FishVet site and follow their chart to see if it will isolate your problem. The site URL is http://www.fishvet.com/sw_parasite_chart.htm

 

[JHemdal]

George,

That link to that particular diagnostic key does not actually result in an appropriate diagnosis in this case. Additionally, the home page for that link is simply a commercial fish medication site, which always must be taken with a grain of salt.

Jay

 

[1geo]

Whether or not the FishVet weib site results in an "appropriate diagnosis" is, of course, a matter of opinion and how you personally read the charts. But to simply dismiss the information on the site because it is a "commercial fish medication site" is short sighted indeed. Most of the information the aquarium hobbyist gets on aquarium fish diseases and medications comes from "commercial fish medication site(s)" This particular one, FishVet, produces such medications as Revive, Formalin, Malachite Green, No-Ich, Aqua-Pro Cure, Marine Aid, among others. There are many hobbyist, including myself, that can thank this "commercial fish medication site" for saving untold numbers of aquarium fish. The site also has very valuable "does" and "don't" information that all hobbyist should be familiar with.

 

[hllywd]

Thanks for the input 1geo, but that flow chart doesn't really help. No obvious ich, fungus, or anything else. I'm convinced this is HLLE, there were no symtoms other than the fin damage and the erosion on the head and face which are nearly white and look like the pic on JHemdal's link. I'm treating accordingly, so we'll see how it goes... I'm not optimistic right now.

 

[hllywd]

This is what I have today...

He came out and ate for the first time in three days at lunch today. I'm mildly encouraged. The pics really don't do the damage justice though, it really looks much worse.

I did start Maracyn and metrinidazole Saturday night along with the vitamin supplement I got, at that time it didn't look like I had anything to lose...

Any more input? What about the "cataracts" on his eyes? Anything else obvious as this progresses? Ideas?

Thanks, Tim

 

[1geo]

Sorry but I must make another suggestion. Go to this chart and see if any match your fish's problems. To me, some are a direct match. http://www.fishvet.com/sw_bacterial_chart.htm The chart includes both fin deterioration and film on the eyes.

 

[kinlayan]

the area's of tissue and fin degeneration certainly look like severe hlle in my opinion, if it was bacterial id expect a more choppy stringy fin erosion and also more redness around the tissue erosion at the head area.

In my opinion the fact that he isnt eating well is really the biggest problem as alot of these cases are enviromental ,nutritional or sometimes pathological (some causative organism)

the vitamin supplement you are using must have sufficient levels of Vitamin C, iodine and Omega 3 fatty acids if you are going to attempt to reverse this degradation and you need to supplement the diet with some form of marine algae in large quantities.Does he eat any vegetable matter?If not you have to get some in maybe make your own gel food mixture with all the delicious stuff plus the stuff he usually wont eat

Also please make sure you have very low levels of nitrate in your water, hope something here helps to rescue a beautiful fish

The white film on the eyes is the one thing that makes me think you may be dealing with more than one ailment here

 

[JHemdal]

The cloudy eyes and the lesion between the eyes are new since the first photos, and are not typical of HLLE - even the atypical case that I mentioned that yellow tangs get.

Kinlayan is correct, there does not seem to be the inflamation you would expect to see with bacterial infections.

I agree with Kinlayan that it seems like there are multple issues going on here. The lesion on the forehead almost looks like a wound - could the fish have hit the rocks for some reason?

Whenever I see cloudy eyes on fish like that, I try to give them a five minute FW dip, and then settle the dip water and look for flukes.

George, I worked for years to develop a diagnostic key for fish diseases that used purely gross visual symptoms. After many, many years, I've since given up. I wrote an article for FAMA in 1988 that worked pretty well, and then I incorporated a huge dendritic key in my Aquapro computer software that I wrote back in the early 1990's....so it isn't that I haven't tried this avenue myself.
The problem is that certain symptoms cannot be identified through gross visual symptoms (for example, my asking the O.P. if they can do a diagnostic dip). I defy anyone to correctly identify a Uronema infection without a microscope - it can't be done. The gross visuals of this protozoan disease seems to shout bacteria, but it isn't, and if you treat with antibiotics like this key would tell you to, you'll surely lose the fish.
And again, I'm concerned that these keys you are promoting only offer suggestions to use chemicals that are sold by this company. What about praziquantel, fenbendazole, chloroquine, does the company sell those drugs? I'd be lost without them myself.

Jay

 

[hllywd]

Thanks everybody for your help. I was up at 0530 this morning for work and have been checking on this guy every morning. He didn't make it through last night. I really thought he was better last night, he'd eat but couldn't see the food real well and missed sometimes, but at least he was eating. The fins seemed a little better last night and I thought I might actually save one. I'm just glad I wasn't bold enough to cut loose for the black tang...

If the head damage was an injury it wasn't obvious what happened, and the onset was over a few days. I tried to get a better view last night and the was some pink in the middle of the wound but it didn't look severely inflamed. It bothers me this tank hasn't hadfish in it for nearly 2 years, and I watched this particular fish for several days (and it had been in stock for over 2 weeks before I got it. I did more than 100% H2O changes before I brought him home and the parameters weren't horrible before I did that. The worst being nitrates around 5 by my eye... I guess it's time that tank comes down.