Chlorine bleach in a reef tank?

[AcroporAddict]

I have a quick question. Now before anyone jumps on me, this is not so I can torture my fish or corals. I have a specific reason for asking this.

Lets say you have an established 80 net gallon reef. If you were to introduce pure chlorine bleach into it, how many milliliters would it take to become an irritant to the fish or corals?

Anyone know?

 

[HighlandReefer]

I have done some searching and can not find any reference to a safe level of bleach in a reef system. Every time any levels of bleach are suspected it has always been stated that the tank should be treated with a dechlorinator that you buy from a LFS. Bleach is quite toxic in a reef system. You can buy test kits from pool stores that will measure the level of bleach in your water.

 

[luther1200]

What is the reason? Maybe some one can offer a better solution.

 

[therealfatman]

Chlorine/chloramine enters the bloodstream of the fish and binds hemoglobin cells - the oxygen carrying cells of the fish’s body.

Fish are very sensitive to chlorine. Concentrations as low as 0.001 ppm (one 1/1000th of your water's concentration) will often cause fish to try to escape from the offending water source. In other words, they will attempt to avoid even very low levels of chlorine like the plague!
Toxicity studies on freshwater fish suggest that the highest allowable concentration of chlorine that does not appear to show demonstrable harmful effects is around 0.01 ppm. However, I emphasize again that the fish themselves seek relief from concentrations one-tenth this amount. Currently, aquaculture standards state that long-term exposure to chlorine should not exceed 0.003 ppm.
Randy has written a good article available at this url:
reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/rhf/feature/index.php

While it is titled in reference to chloroamine it also covers chlorine quite well.

 

[Boomer]

That rate depends on a number of things Acropora. Is there activated carbon in the tank, how heavy is the aeration, skimming, what temp is the water, etc. as these all remove or drive of chlorine in a short time. And what is its decomposition rate, as chorine is a strong oxidizer and what is its dcecomp rate to chlorite. There is a book on non-lethal levels I looked at for you on Google book but the tables I needed where omitted

http://books.google.com/books?id=--...HViMQJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4

More here
http://books.google.com/books?id=ug...WqjMUJ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

From Pesticide Info
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/List_AquireAll.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33637&Taxa_Group=Fish

The idea here, as given by Fat's, which is an exact quote from Stephen M. Meyer's article, without ref to it, is not to have any. As long as the exposure is not too long or the concentration to high they will recover from it. Fish are more sensitive to it than inverts for the most part.

 

[therealfatman]

By Stephen M. Meyer

Fish are very sensitive to chlorine. Concentrations as low as 0.001 ppm (one 1/1000th of your water's concentration) will often cause fish to try to escape from the offending water source. In other words, they will attempt to avoid even very low levels of chlorine like the plague!

Toxicity studies on freshwater fish suggest that the highest allowable concentration of chlorine that does not appear to show demonstrable harmful effects is around 0.01 ppm. However, I emphasize again that the fish themselves seek relief from concentrations one-tenth this amount. Currently, aquaculture standards state that long-term exposure to chlorine should not exceed 0.003 ppm.

aquariumfish.com/aquariumfish/detail.aspx?aid=2735&cid=3783&search=

Better?

 

[HighlandReefer]

Ok Chemistry geeks. Given that a level of 0.001 ppm might be safe in a reef aquarium. House hold bleach is 5.25% bleach. 80 gallons of total water volume. 1.0 ppm = ~1 mg./L. The chlorine level in bleach is 52,500 ppm.

Then with my calculations and I am not a chemist :lol:

I come up with .0057 ml of standard 5.25% bleach may be safely added to your 80 gallon total water volume reef system.

Did I pass?

 

[One Dumm Hikk]

52,500 ppm of Chlorine, or 52,500 ppm of NaClO? If its 52,500 ppm of NaClO, wouldn't that throw the calculations off to get back to ppm of Cl? Even if by the amount of Na and O that would throw it off? I am not a chemist either so it has me curious with the math. Won't ever be adding bleach to my tank but curious nonetheless how much would be catastrophic. .0057ml in 80 gallons of water isn't a whole lot

 

[HighlandReefer]

Perhaps I am incorrect in my assumption? I think I am over my head. :lol:

This article may help:

Processing Environments: Effective Use of Chlorine
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/poul/virtuallibrary/mckeeprocessingenvironschlorine.html

From this article:

Example Usage Calculations
I. Calculation for 200 ppm (0.02% Chlorine) Solution from Standard Bleach

1. Start with Standard Bleach is 5.25% (0.0525) Sodium Hypochlorite (NaCIO)

2. Sodium Hypochlorite is 47.62% (0.4762) Chlorine

3. To calculate the amount of Chlorine in Standard Bleach

0.0525 (sodium hypochlorite) times 0.4762 (percentage of chlorine in sodium hypochlorite equals 0.025 or 2.5%

4. Calculate Y, The ratio of final solution volume-to-standard bleach volume required to achieve a solution of 200 ppm chlorine concentration:

Y = (the amount of chlorine in bleach) / (desired solution chlorine concentration)

Y = 2.50% / 0.02% = 125 to 1.0

A 125 unit volume of 200 ppm final solution will consist of 124 units water and 1.0 units of standard bleach, a 124 to 1.0 ratio of water-to-standard bleach.

5. Calculate X, the ratio of standard bleach volume-to-final solution volume required to achieve a solution of 200 ppm chlorine concentration:

X = (desired solution chlorine concentration) / (the amount of chlorine in bleach)

X = 0.02% / 2.50% = 0.008 (0.80%) to 1.0

A 125 unit volume of 200 ppm final solution will consist of 0.8% bleach (1.0 units) and 99.2% water (124 units), a .0081 to 1 ratio of standard bleach-to-water.

II. Calculation for 200 ppm (0.02% Chlorine) Solution from Sodium Hypochlorite (47.62% chlorine)

1. Calculate Y, The ratio of final solution volume-to-sodium hypochlorite volume required to achieve a solution of 200 ppm chlorine concentration

Y = (the amount of chlorine in sodium hypochlorite) / (desired final solution chlorine concentration)

Y = 47.62% / 0.02% = 2,381 to 1.0

A 2,381 unit volume of 200 ppm final solution will consist of 2,380 units water and 1.0 units of sodium hypochlorite, a 2,380 to 1.0 ratio of water-to-sodium hypochlorite

2. Calculate X, the ratio of sodium hypochlorite volume-to-final solution volume required to achieve a solution of 200 ppm chlorine concentration

X = (desired solution chlorine concentration) / (amount of chlorine in sodium hypochlorite)

X = 0.02% / 47.62% = 0.0004 (0.040%) to 1.0

A 2,381 unit volume of 200 ppm final solution will consist of 0.040% sodium hypochlorite (1.0 units) and 99.6% water (2,371.376 units), a .000402 to 1 ratio of sodium hypochlorite-to-water.

 

[jim.l]

AcroporAddict,
Why do you want to put chlorine in your reef?

 

[luther1200]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15143347#post15143347 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by luther1200
What is the reason? Maybe some one can offer a better solution.

I would never add bleach to my tank, but if you really need to for some reason I would like to know that reason if you don't mind sharing?

 

[AcroporAddict]

Guys,
Thanks for the help so far. A couple of you have asked why I would add bleach to a reef tank. Here is why I asked.

I have three reef tanks (210, 100, 35) plumbed into a single sump. In my net 80 gallon chalice tank I have had some bryopsis issues. I have the upper hand now. The best way to get rid of it, IME, has been to remove the rock I see it on from the reef, spot bleach the bryopsis (just a couple drops works for a small patch), rinse the rock in fresh salt water, and replace in the tank. That is what I have used. I have 99% of the bryopsis beaten, and now I am dealing with the occaisional residual spot, but these spots are in places under lots of other rock, and this tank has roughly 65 LE Chalice Corals in it, so I don't want to dismantle the reef.

So I have been trying to work up a way to bleach the bryopsis IN the tank, but minimize possible bleach exposure to the fish and corals. Here is what I have come up with:

This is a syringe with a piece of vinyl tubing over the end. You draw up one or two ml. of bleach in the syringe, then place the vinyl tube over it. You place the end of the vinyl tube over the area of bryopsis in the tank, using the open end of the tube to seal against the live rock. You then inject the bleach from the syringe into the area inside the vinyl tube, maintaining pressure aganst the rock to seal the bleach inside the tube so it kills the bryopsis. Hold this way for about 10 seconds, then pull back on the syringe plunger to remove as much of the bleach as possible from inside the vinyl tube.

Some bleach leakage into the tank water is inevitable this way, but I have tried it, and it works, but I didn't want to go crazy with it without knowing how much bleach could get loose without hurting the fish or corals in the tank.

Another possibility using this method is hydrogen peroxide, but it would not be as effective as bleach, but probably less toxic to the fish and corals.

I was thinking maybe a dose of Prime before I spot bleach with this method would be a nice safeguard.

Any suggestions? Am I crazy for thinking this up?

Dave

 

[HighlandReefer]

I would dose AlgaeFix marine before I use your method. It has worked for many hobbyists in gaining control of bryopsis. It does take a bit longer to gain control of the bryopsis vs. regular algae.

 

[Boomer]

Why didn't you just say that Acropor.


Bleach is a very strong oxidizer and will react with the organics of the Byro. Most of that bleach will be chemically altered and will not be bleach any more. The addition of a dechlor will remove any excessive bleach and the use of GAC will also remove any bleach or its oxidants created. The real issue here is the continues increase of the chloride ion and chlorite ion increasing in the tank, not to mention the increase of sulfonates and sulfates form the Prime or dehclor.

 

[Boomer]

Better?

Yes

I have a very, very bad habit of not liking it when people post info as if it is their own. However, we all make mistakes at times when quoting and forget at times. I have done this more than once myself here. So, I'm just as guilty

 

[bertoni]

Have you tried lime paste? It has been very effective for me for similar purposes, and does not have a toxicity problem. I haven't had much trouble with hair algae, though, mostly other organisms.

 

[therealfatman]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15145423#post15145423 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
Perhaps I am incorrect in my assumption? I think I am over my head. :lol:

This article may help:

Processing Environments: Effective Use of Chlorine
http://www.ag.auburn.edu/poul/virtuallibrary/mckeeprocessingenvironschlorine.html

From this article:

etc, etc, etc,

Great post.

 

[therealfatman]

posting refernces

posting refernces

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15147518#post15147518 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Boomer
Better?

Yes

I have a very, very bad habit of not liking it when people post info as if it is their own. However, we all make mistakes at times when quoting and forget at times. I have done this more than once myself here. So, I'm just as guilty

I have a tendancy to cut and paste then go back and highlight the url, close it then go to the thread and try to paste the url only to find I did not copy it. Then I go to the history list and it is not listed, I then fing I forgot the mane of the title etc. etc. I cuss my self out a lot for my mistakes when trying to write.

I do not want to try to take credit for the content posted but I get tired of dealing with my computer blunders.

The easy way to tell if I have just copied and pasted is if the writing is concise, all the spelling is correct and half the sentences are not run on sentences like most of my own writing. My english course grades were evidence of my lack of writing skills. I always got straight A's in prose classes and C's in technical writing classes. I like adjectives and technical writing should not contain adjectives. I really like administrative assistants.

 

[therealfatman]

Sorry double posted again..

 

[Fish'InMN]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15146904#post15146904 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by HighlandReefer
I would dose AlgaeFix marine before I use your method. It has worked for many hobbyists in gaining control of bryopsis. It does take a bit longer to gain control of the bryopsis vs. regular algae.

Can you provide any information with this claim? No one I've spoken to that has used AlgaeFix agrees it has any impact on bryopsis. Many mentions of it maybe 'stalling' the growth of it, but nothing more.