Chrysopterus Color Loss Thread

[Ron Popeil]

For the few of us that have kept or are keeping these beautiful fish, I would like to start a discussion on preventing their seemingly inevitable color loss. Or recovering those intense yellows and oranges that soon fade to drab browns and dull yellows. I think Ive only heard of one case where the fish never dulled in color. For everyone else, myself included, I am frustrated and disappointed that it hasnt been figured out yet why this occurs, and usually in as little as two weeks time.

My theory is diet.

But when using a variety of different brand flakes, pellets and frozen food items, no change is detected. I was speaking with a friend today who mentioned that flake food, if not kept sealed and refrigerated loses its crucial fats and vitamins within a month. So that got me thinking: How much do we really know about our fish foods, both dry and frozen? How long do the nutrients stay viable? Which foods have the greatest density of nutrition?

All of this of course, on the assumption that diet is really the cause behind the Amphiprion chrysopterus color loss.

What other factors may be important to consider? Ive heard that our intense halide lighting may induce the color change. Anemone species: Ive seen how black a clownfish will turn when hosting in a Haddoni carpet, for example. Why does this particular species lose color, when my A. percula or A. tricinctus maintain their bright oranges for years?

My hope is that we can figure this out. I would like to get the input of people who work in the fish food industry, marine biologists who study diets in wild fish or color change, hobbyists who have noticed solutions for color changes, etc. Id like to see ideas, some brainstorming and hopefully testing with positive results.

I know I am willing to try out any viable ideas.

If you know people who may have valuable input on this topic, please ask them for info or direct them here for discussion. I would sincerely appreciate it.

 

[Ron Popeil]

Diet did again come up in two of my responses. From the aquatics director at LiveAquaria, nutrition and natural sunlight were the two factors suggested.

Does anyone have any input on what elements of natural sunlight arent necessarily being replicated from halides? Im currently running 400w XM 20k bulbs, were I to run 10k, would the body of the clownfish respond by showing more natural coloration?

 

[Ron Popeil]

the following are some other points of interest that i have collected when speaking with mark from bluezoo aquatics.
he mentioned some correspondence with another individual who had some experience with melanopus clowns being raised outdoors vs indoors. interestingly enough, the clowns raised outside would show the blue in the headstripe, but lose it when brought indoors. and likewise, clarkii clowns collected in different locations but at the same depths would show variability in the amount of blue in their stripes. however, none of my chrysopterus have seemed to lose the intensity of their blue stripes, only the yellows and oranges, but its an interesting point to consider. it would be valuable to note of the people keeping chrysopterus in the RC community, what lighting their fish are under and if there is any difference in color between when they first received their fish and after two weeks on.

another interesting point brought up was that juveniles chrysopterus from the solomons tend to be brown and dull, whereas the adults are golden. he stated that perhaps this was caused by the juvenile clowns tendency to stay inside the anemone and the more free ranging adults are exposed to a wider range of food and nutrients. this could either again, suggest there is something nutritionally missing from the available fish foods many of us have been using, or more simply just a natural color change typical of this species as it matures.

 

[Toddrtrex]

I have never kept Chrysopterus's before, but might try to add a bit to this.

My Clarkii pair looks similar to your first picture, with a slight blue tint to the white stripe, and their bodies seem to have gotten darker with age (( I have had them for about 9 years now )). I have to say that they look their best now. Very little natural light hits that tank, there is a skylight near it, but at most an hour of sun hits the tank, and that is only for about 2 weeks each Spring/Fall. They are hosted by a Haddoni.

You mentioned anemones... Back in Jan I got a pair of SI Percs, solid black dorsal fin. The female was first to be hosted by my LTA, and noticed that the dorsal fin is now orange. The male wasn't welcome for the first 3 weeks that the female was hosted. During that time, his dorsal fin stayed black --- now that he is allowed in the LTA, his dorsal fin is started to turn orange.

 

[Ron Popeil]

from a popular fish food producer in regards to diet, this particular element seems to hold some importance:

Astaxanthin.

according to the wikipedia site, its a very valuable carotenoid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astaxanthin

this nutritional component is used in salmon coloring and is naturally found in their eggs and is the reason why lobsters turn red when cooked. perhaps fish foods high in this could hold promise.

does anyone have any nutritional breakdowns for many of our most commonly used fish foods? which foods have the highest amounts of this carotenoid?

 

[Ron Popeil]

<i>Tippawan Paripatananont, Jirasak Tangtrongpairoj, Achariya Sailasuta, Nantarika Chansue (1999) Effect of Astaxanthin on the Pigmentation of Goldfish Carassius auratus , Journal of the World Aquaculture Society 30 (4), 454â€"œ460.</i>

"The optimal dosage of astaxanthin for goldfish Carassius auratus was determined by feeding a series of diets containing 0, 25, 50, 75, and 100 mg of astaxanthin/kg of diet for 4 wk. The pigmentation on fish skin was measured by visual assessment against a color chart and by counting chromatophores produced in the dermis layer of fish skin. Both criteria showed that 36â€"œ37 mg/kg astaxanthin was the optimal dosage to stimulate fish color. A 4-wk observation after this experiment demonstrated that fish color stimulated by dietary astaxanthin was stable in its intensity. Therefore feeding astaxanthin could be a suitable way for goldfish producers to stimulate color among fish grown in an algae-free environment. The survival rate of fish fed diets with astaxanthin was significantly higher than fish fed diets without astaxanthin. However, there was no significant effect of astaxanthin on fish weight gain."

while this relates to common goldfish, the elements behind its use seem to parallel what i would like to achieve.


thanks todd for the input! i think ive seen that clarkiis typically can maintain their yellows and oranges regardless of diet or light in comparison to chrysopterus; but, like chrysopterus, when paired with a certain anemones they darken. its interesting that your percula reverted back to orange from a completely black dorsal fin....

 

[David Thomson]

Ron, what are you feeding to your clowns?

 

[Ron Popeil]

typically i feed a variety of different foods and brands. some months i favor others in attempts to see any changes. but hanging on my wall is a rack of the following foods:

aquadine marine hipro duraflake
aquadine marine spirulina
aquadine marine veggie
formula one flake
OSI spirulina

as for my frozen foods i feed on occasion, PE mysis, cyclopeeze and just recently rods food. they also will eat the prawns and scallops i feed my anemone monthly.

 

[elegance coral]

Like Todd, I don't keep chrysopterus, but I do have a very melonistic clarkii. She always gets a very mixed up diet. She even gets live glass shrimp and FW feeder fish from time to time. I've had her in magnifica, gigantea, LTA, and haddoni. I've never noticed a color difference based on the anemone she's in, or the food she's eating. She's never been in a BTA though. I have noticed that if I keep her under 14K MH she will start turning orange in areas, like the top of her dorsal fin. If she's under 10K she remains jet black. I hope this helps.

 

[David Thomson]

I personally would make a switch to feeding more frozen food. In particular start feeding Formula One. It has Astaxanthin in it and helps my fish to maintain color. I can notice a difference when I have not fed it for a while.

Astaxanthin is VERY important for the red and orange colors. If I do not feed it to my baby clowns they will be an ugly faded orange color.

Feed more PE mysis, and heavy on the Formula one. Formula one also contains seaweed which can help with the yellow's. You could also add some formula two if they will eat it. This may further help with the yellows

 

[JamesJR]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14908634#post14908634 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by David Thomson
I personally would make a switch to feeding more frozen food. In particular start feeding Formula One. It has Astaxanthin in it and helps my fish to maintain color. I can notice a difference when I have not fed it for a while.

Astaxanthin is VERY important for the red and orange colors. If I do not feed it to my baby clowns they will be an ugly faded orange color.

Feed more PE mysis, and heavy on the Formula one. Formula one also contains seaweed which can help with the yellow's. You could also add some formula two if they will eat it. This may further help with the yellows

So true! Formula one was actually developed ages ago by clownfish breeders (Frank Hoff if I am not mistaken) specifically to help color them up. I feed cyclop-eaze a lot to my tank and it seems to help color clownfish up.

 

[MarinaP]

I do not think it is diet or lights. All of mine, even whitetails, never had color loss under different lights or foods. Maybe it's the water (brand of salt, additives) or stress from corals?... Too many variables to pinpoint a solution IMHO. Cheers, J.

 

[Ron Popeil]

thanks david and james. ive begun incorporating more cyclops into the diet. im still looking at other means of higher concentrations of Astaxanthin.

hey marina, thanks for chiming in. you never had any color loss of your white tails? hrm. i noticed my yellow tails maintained their bright yellows, but all the white tail chrys ive had dulled very rapidly.

im using kent salt, water from an RODI unit and dont use additives. one thing to consider might be the size of the aquarium they are housed in, but if that were the case and stressful enough to fade their colors....why would they regularly spawn?

would you mind expanding on what you meant by stress from the corals?

 

[MarinaP]

Whitetails faired well. I never used Kent, are u willing to try another brand?

Size of tanks: spawning pair was in a 90, but they and others were housed in 10G for quarantine and lived in 29 for some time.

Corals: I guess I meant warfare, chemicals released by different corals, maybe algae blooms, etc. We just do not know what is going on in our tanks and how mixing, say, clowns from Fiji and corals form HI might play out.

I obviously do not have a solution to your problem. I would play with chemical variables, if you are determined to get to the root of the problem. Good luck

 

[wicked_NaCl_h2o]

Hi marina, I have a white tailed chrysopterus too. She kept her yellow color untill I put her in a tank with MH lights. It took a couple of weeks for her to lose her yellow in my 120g. This is what made me think it was the lights. She kept her yellow the whole four months in the 29g qt. What kind of salt do you use Marina?

 

[vaporize]

I have the same problem with blue stripe, however I do not think this is diet related.

I have a pair of them, one big one small, the small one turned pale like that but the female never change colour at all. Both are kept together, eat the same NLS pellets all the time.

So diet is highly not a reason

 

[ezhoops]

I would have to agree with MarinaP I no longer have my chrys' but I had them for over 2 years and they never lost they're color. They were a bit younger and smaller than yours though. I feed them same stuff as you with less variety and my lights were 14K MH. So it could something Marina mentioned. I used instant ocean and never supplemented (except calcium) I kept them with a BTA also and few tank mates. Personally I think Cyclopeeze really colors them up, IMO

is this the same pair that was spawning for you a few years back?

 

[Ron Popeil]

vaporize, what are NLS pellets? and are your pair white tailed or yellow tailed? personally, i feel the problem is white tail specific, as all the yellow tails ive owned do not fade in their yellows.

ezhoops, i dont recall what color tails yours had either, yellow or white? it seems the consensus is to feed heavily with cyclopeeze. do you feed them as a flake, or just them cloud the water as a frozen food?
and unfortunately my previous spawning pair died unexpectedly during my move, these are a pair i acquired last year.

 

[vaporize]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=14937863#post14937863 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ron Popeil
vaporize, what are NLS pellets? and are your pair white tailed or yellow tailed? personally, i feel the problem is white tail specific, as all the yellow tails ive owned do not fade in their yellows.

NLS = New Life Spectrum pellets

Yes, only white tailed seems to have the problem, my yellow tail ones does not fade at all. But I only have 2 yellow tail, so that's a little sample.

I do have another large 5" pair blue stripe white tail that faded colour too.

 

[Ron Popeil]

any recent advances or fresh ideas with this problem yet?