Clams 'gaping'...

[jmaneyapanda]

unfortunately, i think that clam is done. its besides the point now, but i would doubt worms killed this clam. I have had a heavy worm population in my tank for 5 years and havent lost a clam. Also, I think the FW dip likely pushed the clam over the edge. Sorry.

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9888544#post9888544 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jmaneyapanda
unfortunately, i think that clam is done. its besides the point now, but i would doubt worms killed this clam. I have had a heavy worm population in my tank for 5 years and havent lost a clam. Also, I think the FW dip likely pushed the clam over the edge. Sorry.

Agreed. Had I dipped him five days ago, it might have been a different story.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I have to disagree. I saw nothing in your clams that wouldve merited a FW dip. But, I did not see them in person, so I cannot say for sure.

 

[Rovert]

And there was no real reason to avoid it, either, especially when the clam started going downhill.

I think the lesson to be taken away here is this.

It's hard to both give advice, and to take it, when something like this happens. Having been on both sides of the keyboard, both offereing and asking for advice, I don't know which is harder... offering advice that might be incorrect, or accepting advice and committing to a course of action that might be incorrect..

We all try to do the best we can, but if you look back at this thread, there are a number of possible problems proposed... fish nipping, alkalinty maladjustments, predatory snails... and the list goes on.

So, when you're on the receiving end, how do you decide whose advice is right?

I knew in my gut that it wasn't an alkalinity problem. When you have SPS and LPS that look like this, tank chemistry probably isn't an issue...

And there's little to convince me this is a nipping problem. So, I still believe this was a PM issue, because at least some photos that I've seen look substantially similar to what I've experienced...

Note the 'chunks' missing, which could easily be interpreted to be a nipping problem.

It's not easy to know what to do. At the end of the day, looking back, I'd have done the FW dip five days ago, when the clam still had a chance. Lesson learned. I'll be keeping a sharp eye peeled on the others.

Thanks to everyone here for all for your help. It didn't work out this time, but perhaps there's something to be taken away for all of us.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Rovert- You are certainly right- when misinformation matches good advice, it is difficult to determine what will help. The best you can do is to research as much as you can, and find the sources you have faith in.

But anyway, here is more my point- FW dip is not a cure all. In fact, for clams, it will solve relatively few of the problems they can get. So, a FW dip 5 days earlier, a month earlier, etc.- I dont think it would've helped anything. I think that clam had some other problems.

That last photo of the clam you posted- sure it looks like some mechanical damage, like nipping. But it also could be other things as well. I also see some signs that could very well be PM. But in the earlier photos, I saw nothing to show those symptoms of PM.

Sorry and good luck.

 

[Rovert]

No, it's not a cure-all, and one doesn't want to stress an animal needlessly. But in a scenario such as this, short of any other rational explanation for why a 6-year old clam just went around the bend, I have to believe it was a manifestation of PM.

The way I figure it, a little stress beats a little death any day.

Perhaps the cases of PM with the 'ruffled' look to their mantles was generally in younger clams, and this is what it looks like when it strikes an older clam. Maybe this is a slightly different pathogen. Maybe, maybe, maybe. We'll probably never know.

One thing is for sure that we do know. This sucks. That clam and I have been through a lot together.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

well, if it was PM, your other clams will follow suit, so keep your eyes peeled.

 

[a4twenty]

i am sorry for your loss but none of your clams are or were exhibiting signs of PM. using a FWD for anything but PM is just adding stress and stress in a stressful situation will only end in more stress or death.

while it it has turned out that it wasn't your Alk ( would have been better with a faster response ) it still was not PM, you need to keep looking ..............

 

[Rovert]

Ok, guys. Update. My teardrop Max was showing the same symptoms as the blue one. Did a 30 minute FWD and it's looking better already.

I think it might be time we consider that PM may well have another manifestation of symptoms, or that those symptoms look different in older clams.

However, I observed what looked like another one of those smooth worms exiting the side during the dip. Whether it was on the surface, or if it is a boring worm is TBD, but the clam is showing signs of improvement, so I still believe I did the right thing. If there's any sort of parasite, whether it be a pathogen that causes PM, snails, worms or anything else, it's a safe bet the fresh water will get them to evacuate.

This is what I pulled out of the last (blue) clam:

 

[mbbuna]

im sorry but the photos you posted earlier are not pinched mantle. this is what pinched mantle looks like

there is alot of research being done on this and it is caused by a protozoan

 

[jsl6v8]

OHHH so PM is where the outside edges of the mantle are upturned, finally I think I understand.

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9897262#post9897262 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jsl6v8
OHHH so PM is where the outside edges of the mantle are upturned, finally I think I understand.

yes, those two photos i posted, the top one is an early stage. what will happen next is the curling will progress and the mantle will recede into the shell, then clam will start producing mucus from where the mantle and shell meet.

the second photo is a clam that had been treated with FWDs, iodine, metro a few times untill it finally died

 

[Rovert]

A few things.

1) There was mantle pinch on my maxima, though it was interpreted to be fish nipping and turned out not to be. Although it didn't appear as severely as the photos you posted, I won't rule it out as a possibility.

2) Unless there's new late-breaking information on PM, it was my understanding that the research was continuing, and that neither the cause, nor the treatment, were specifically known yet. Since so little is known about it, I think to state definitively that my problems aren't PM would be presumptuous. I'm surely not going to rule it out.

3) I notice that the photos that most post of PM are in Croceas. Mine are Maximas, and exhibited the signs of the photo in Reefkeeping magazine, shown above. Cancer takes many different forms and manifestations in humans, is it not possible that PM takes on different forms and symptoms in clams?

4) If you believe it's not PM, then what's your diagnosis?

 

[Rovert]

BTW... the clam in your avatar... did you get that from Barry? I saw one just like it on his site not too long ago, and just didn't act fast enough. It's beautiful!

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9897346#post9897346 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
A few things.

1) There was mantle pinch on my maxima, though it was interpreted to be fish nipping and turned out not to be. Although it didn't appear as severely as the photos you posted, I won't rule it out as a possibility.

again, the photos you posted showed no signs of PM. im VERY familiar with PM, have followed every post i could find on the subject for the past 4 years and have lost 12 clams of my own, most of them Maximas(including the one that is my avatar). the mark that jmaneyapandy referred to as a fish nip looks to be just that, its not PM.

2) Unless there's new late-breaking information on PM, it was my understanding that the research was continuing, and that neither the cause, nor the treatment, were specifically known yet. Since so little is known about it, I think to state definitively that my problems aren't PM would be presumptuous. I'm surely not going to rule it out.

i speak with Barry N. fairly frequently and im a mod on his forum. there is new news on this however it has been known for some time(about 1 1/2 years) that this is caused by a protozoan. as you may know there are thousands of species of protozoans. the research being done now is to find the exact species and develop an effective treatment. im sorry if you feel im being presumptuous by saying that the symptoms your clams are exhibiting are not PM, but ive had enough personal experience with PM to confidently say, based on the photos you posted PM is not what you are dealing with.

4) If you believe it's not PM, then what's your diagnosis?

i wish i could give you a diagnosis, sometimes its just not that easy. there is still a lot of missing info.

 

[mbbuna]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9897368#post9897368 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Rovert
BTW... the clam in your avatar... did you get that from Barry? I saw one just like it on his site not too long ago, and just didn't act fast enough. It's beautiful!

thank you, i lost that Maxima a few years ago. one of the nicest clams ive ever had

 

[Rovert]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9897817#post9897817 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mbbuna
i wish i could give you a diagnosis, sometimes its just not that easy. there is still a lot of missing info.

Well, there it is, then. I'm going to give this guy another FWD today, because he didn't look good again this AM. At this point I think there's nothing to lose. If it's not PM, it might be yet another parasite which might be driven off by the dip. Unless someone else can offer a better diagnosis, that's the route I'm going.

 

[ezcompany]

after the FW dip, i would isolate it from ALL organisms, snails, hermits, though i admit worms will be a little hard. if your maxima isn't too large i would place him in a soap dish to be lifted off from the substrate. i am seriously suspecting those worms to be your troubles.

 

[Rovert]

Yeah, I've moved him up on top of the rocks, out of the sand bed. The clam is pretty large, so a soap dish won't work, but you've given me a good idea. If he makes it through the night, I'll try something along those lines tomorrow.

 

[Rovert]

Ok, guys. Lost the 2nd clam over last night.

This has got to be one of the most bizarre mysteries I've dealt with in my 6 years of reefing. It just makes no sense at all.

I have three clams that are doing just fine, but these two... the largest in the tank... bombed.

One thing that came to mind is something that happened a couple weeks ago, when I moved the tank due to the flooding in my basement.

It was a complete tank breakdown and relocation (which I'll have to do in reverse sometime this week), and when I was done placing all the animals back in the tank, I put some carbon in the sump to mitigate any stress products from the corals.

Fine and dandy, but for the fact that I didn't rinse the carbon well enough, and a cloud of 'dust' ran into the tank, and coated the glass, and other surfaces. Luckily my skimmer took a lot of it out, and it's gone now.

However, I wonder if this carbon dust might not have resulted the Tridacnid version of 'black lung disease'. Is it possible that the dust from the carbon coated the gills of the clams and impeded their metabolism? One would think they'd be able to slough that off, but perhaps not.

It begs the question as to why it didn't affect the other clams, but who the heck knows, at this point.

I thought I'd just mention it as another possible root cause, to hear opinions on whether or not it's a factor.