Closed Loop(s) or MP10/Tunze 60XXs?

[plankton]

Building a 25G rimless nano based on Mr Aqua 18"x18" low-iron cube. Now the hard part. To get the flow of my barebottom tank, should I drill the back glass for 1 to 2 closed loops (think eheim 1260s) or go with a pair of MP10w/Tunze 60XXs?

PRO of Closed Loop (CL):
- relatively cheap : a few bits of plumbing and two pumps
- no exposed power heads or wires to clutter or clean in main tank
- virtually silent

CON CL:
- gotta drill holes for the bulk heads
- hard to vary flow

----------------------------------------------------

PRO of PowerHeads (PH):
- vary easy to vary speed
- extensive run modes (night, feeding, surge, wave maker, etc)
- easy to install

CON PH:
- expensive
- gotta clean them often
- exposed wires
- some PHs are noisy (MP10s) as they ramp up/down in speed' the MP 'whine'

 

[JasonBJones]

I will throw in a few more pros and cons for you. I will tell you up front my additions are biased because I think there is only one clear answer here.

PRO of Closed Loop (CL):
- I think you hit them, except silent may not be true.

CON CL:
- uses substantially more electricity than the other choices
- adds more heat to the water than the other choices
- have to add multiple bulkheads throughout the tank which diminish the clean look
- harder to make random flow (since flow is constant)
- once you drill the holes, can never change the flow pattern of the tank to compensate for changing needs based on growth (unless you use locline, but then it is as bulky, or more bulky, than running powerheads)

PRO of PowerHeads (PH):
- change flow patterns as tank needs grow
- less heat
- less electricity
- easier to take offline and clean (if only marginally)

CON PH:
- visually less appealing unless hidden


My vote is for the powerhead option. I know it is sacrilegious to say around these parts, but I would lean towards a controllable Tunze over a MP10. I have used both and now favor the Tunzes. In the year and a half I have run my vortech, I have had to replace every part except the driver. I also cant control the direction of the flow. Both of those really bother me. While it is less obtrusive than a Tunze would be, and has much better programs (tidal mode, etc...), I like the reliability and the ability to control the directional output with the Tunze.

 

[plankton]

Hi Jason - Thanks for the additional detail and on your experiences thus far. I forgot to consider the power used and of course you are correct that a CL will use much more power than PHs.

I used to run Tunze Streams on my 210G full SPS laden reef tank for years and loved them - except for having to clean them about once per month but that is true for any powerhead. I also agree with your assessment of the vortech style pump but would add to it that they are VERY noisy.

For the record, I also own a 'Hydor Koralia Wavemaker Controller' and two power heads and ran them in a 60G nano for two years. Again, they had excellent flow, I could setup all kinds of flow patterns, feed mode, night mode, rather quiet (depends on the flow and flow mode), BUT doing the acid dip about once per month to get all the corraline and green algae off was a PITA.

In my quest to rid the main tank of PHs, is there a CL design that would give good flow, not ruin the clean look of a rimless cube?

Or, is there a PH that doesn't grow corraline algae?

<sigh>

Going to have to make a decision soon.

Scott

 

[JasonBJones]

In my quest to rid the main tank of PHs, is there a CL design that would give good flow, not ruin the clean look of a rimless cube?

Probably. If you plumb the entire closed loop through the bottom glass, you could keep a clean look. Have the intake and your returns (I think 2 would be perfect) come through the bottom glass and be hidden by rocks. That should keep the clean look. I would be slightly concerned with the tank integrity, but I think it would be fine. Make sure you have unions and valves to allow removal of the pump for periodic maintenance.

Or, is there a PH that doesn't grow corraline algae?

That is a tough one. I don't think my mp10 has been very bad at this. Once a month I toss it in vinegar for 30 minutes or so while I am doing tank maintenance and it looks new. I generally do this with all pumps and have never had much of a problem with coralline developing that quickly. However, I have had problems when I go longer than a month. It is a pain, no two ways around it.

 

[JasonBJones]

Random idea I just had. The one thing I have always disliked about closed loops is the constant flow. But... if you plumb two pumps, using Y's and keeping only one intake and 2 returns, you could alternate flow between the pumps. This would allow you to vary the flow and eliminate that concern. However, I would put them on slow timers, not sure how well most CL pumps would do being turned on and off repeatedly. Just a thought.

 

[Raoul5Duke]

I recently set up a 18x18x16 cube in my home office and wanted a very clean look, so I painted the back black and used an MP 10 for flow. If you are okay with a black background it really blends in and looks clean IMO. As for the noise, you can hear it, but my bubble Magus skimmer is louder than the MP10. If you put 2 on your tank you will have tons of flow, plus with the MP 10 having its own controller I was able to save an outlet on my DC8 since space is a premium with the nano tanks. HTH.

 

[ange062]

I will throw in a few more pros and cons for you. I will tell you up front my additions are biased because I think there is only one clear answer here.

PRO of Closed Loop (CL):
- I think you hit them, except silent may not be true.

CON CL:
- uses substantially more electricity than the other choices
- adds more heat to the water than the other choices
- have to add multiple bulkheads throughout the tank which diminish the clean look
- harder to make random flow (since flow is constant)
- once you drill the holes, can never change the flow pattern of the tank to compensate for changing needs based on growth (unless you use locline, but then it is as bulky, or more bulky, than running powerheads)

PRO of PowerHeads (PH):
- change flow patterns as tank needs grow
- less heat
- less electricity
- easier to take offline and clean (if only marginally)

CON PH:
- visually less appealing unless hidden


My vote is for the powerhead option. I know it is sacrilegious to say around these parts, but I would lean towards a controllable Tunze over a MP10. I have used both and now favor the Tunzes. In the year and a half I have run my vortech, I have had to replace every part except the driver. I also cant control the direction of the flow. Both of those really bother me. While it is less obtrusive than a Tunze would be, and has much better programs (tidal mode, etc...), I like the reliability and the ability to control the directional output with the Tunze.

That's really interesting to hear you have had problems with your Vortech, I've had mine for about a year now and never had an issue with it.

You can't go wrong with a combo setup here either. Using a "closed-loop" for your sump, which obviously isn't really a closed loop, will provide some amount of flow to be supplemented by variable flow from 1 or 2 powerheads equipped with a wavemaker.

 

[plankton]

My little 14" cube sump will have it's own eheim 1250 return back to the main tank. So, the CL was going to be a true CL with it's own drain and return using eheim 1260.

I guess If I really wanted to drink the EcoTech Coolaid I'd get a pair of MP10Ws with their new Radion XR30w LED pendent and battery backups.

@Jason - I thought about drilling from the bottom but not sure if the Mr Aqua low-iron tank bottom is tempered or not and overall integrity of the tank as you mentioned.

@Raoul - Yeah, I agree that black powerheads against a black back is not bad at all.

@ange062 - Looks like you have already drank the Coolaid. How do you like the Radion? Any dark spots in the tank? How's the coverage over your NC28? And, yes there are shades of grey. A simple closed loop plus one MP10 might be a good solution. e.g. MP10 let's say 2/3" up to get flow, then CL outputs near lower 1/3 to get detrius off the bottom of tank.

Hmmm, more to think about...

Scott

 

[JasonBJones]

That's really interesting to hear you have had problems with your Vortech, I've had mine for about a year now and never had an issue with it.

You can't go wrong with a combo setup here either. Using a "closed-loop" for your sump, which obviously isn't really a closed loop, will provide some amount of flow to be supplemented by variable flow from 1 or 2 powerheads equipped with a wavemaker.

Yeah. I have replaced a wet side, a dry side, an impeller, and a power supply. Basically everything except the driver--which is the only thing I wouldn't mind replacing.

 

[ange062]

@ange062 - Looks like you have already drank the Coolaid. How do you like the Radion? Any dark spots in the tank? How's the coverage over your NC28? And, yes there are shades of grey. A simple closed loop plus one MP10 might be a good solution. e.g. MP10 let's say 2/3" up to get flow, then CL outputs near lower 1/3 to get detrius off the bottom of tank.

I wouldn't say I have drank the coolaid, I am far from an EcoTech fanboy. But for my money, they have offered the best solutions to the products that I have been looking for, and so far I really have nothing bad to say about either of the products I have purchased from them.

Obviously, in a nano the space in your DT is precious, and the MP10 has such a small in tank footprint that it right away was a great option. Not to mention minimal heat added to the water, very high flow capability (1500gph), and tons of configurability and I just didn't see any competition.

As far as the Radion, coverage is great at 9" above the surface. I am currently running it at 40% intensity with SPS near the bottom of the tank. No dark spots other then shaded areas, the light diffusion isn't as good as T5. Sunsets/Sunrises are possibly the coolest thing to happen in my tank. Go check out my build thread for tons more info, I don't want to derail your thread

 

[mussel and hate]

I've been mulling over a similar dilemma. I like the efficiency of in tank propeller pumps but I don't want submerged power cords nor do I wish to pay $260 for a pump with but a 1 year warranty.

While I'm still conceptualizing here are some musings.

I wonder if pumping efficiency is not being misrepresented in the context of PH vs external. If a pump on a CL draws water from one end of a tank and discharges at the opposite end the net effect is to transport water a farther distance than if it was merely a submersible blowing in a given direction. Every molecule of H20 makes the entire journey rather than just pushing the one ahead of it while traveling a short distance. Clearly this effect is more pronounced on a long tank than on a cube. In summary if water moving through the propeller/impeller is the metric of flow then the conventional wisdom seems accurate, but if volume/distance is the metric a well designed CL seems to hold the upper hand.

Two external pumps on an alternating schedule via a relay and timer could share a single run of plumbing(pumping in opposition) in order to create a bi directional flow pattern. Alternately a single pump on a SCWD or OM could create turbulent alternating flow although a discharge manifold would be required.

Certainly a CL is more work and it may not be any cheaper than an Ecotech solution depending on the hardware you select.