Closed loop?

I have a new 90gal. tank that i'm getteing readdy to drill for overflows, and I was wondering if i should also drill a few holes near the bottem and middle for a closed loop thingy (not sure what to call it). I was thinking somewhere around 3-4 holes, but I'm not fimiliar with what types of pumps you need or how much flow you should try to create. Any input whould be appriciated.
 
I think most people are going away from Closed loops- and using the new vortecs , tunze, hydor, type pumps for flow - they are just easier to maintain, etc. But- a closed loop with a smaller pump will be cheaper and do the same if not a better job in my opinion. I ma sure others will "Chime-in" their opinions.
 
What type of returns do you plan from your sump? I have a sea swirl on one of my sump return lines and there are no stagnant areas in my tank. Closed loops and powerheads have constant flows. An Oceans Motions squirt or sea swirl on your return line will vary the flow in your tank making it more natural and won't add heat to the system. It's awesome having the corals sway back and forth as the current changes. Here's are link to a sea swirl video. http://www.sea-swirl.com/
 
OH Ya- I also use a SQWD on my return causing flow variation. IT is a cheap way to accomplish this= Less than $50. But, it does eat up flow- so you need a bigger pump to get the flow you want. ON my 90 I have a 29 sump, with a Panworld return ( cant remember which model - but rated about 1200gph) into the Sqwd which then alternates flow from one side to the other side of the tank, then I added a Seio 820 in one back/top corner for more flow in the display.
 
As far as the return I was debating the issue. I thought about a spray bar, but now I'm not sure. My wife likes the idea of using a wavemaker of some kind. My thing is this, I'm plumbing everything down to my basement, and then having one huge pump pushing 13' of head water back to the tank. I wanted to arange my rock so that it looked kind of like a half-pyramid up agaist the back middle of the tank. The reason I asked about the closed loop system was to get flow to the back side of this pile of rocks. I wanted to blow away any chance of built up detris behide the rocks.

I've heard that the SWCD's are nice but that they go bad periodicly (sp), and are hard to clean unless you get the 1" version. I can't do the 1"er because the type of pump I will be using most likely won't have a 1" return when pushing 13' of head. The sea swirl seems like a good idea, but I don't want a canopy, and I dont want to see that large box on top of my tank.
 
New idea- used the closed loop - but run the return thru a 1" sqwd. So , then you don't have to push that much flow up 13 feet as there will be good alternating current from the close loop/sqwd setup. My cheap sqwd's = 3/4 inch last about 1 year without much cleaning.
 
I know the new "propeller" pumps on wave makers are more "green" from an energy consumption stand point if you don't mind the up-front cost...and they are pretty quick and easy to install/setup...but, I'm still a fan of closed loops...sqwd's are cheap but you'll get more bang for your buck from a OM4...a well configured closed loop will give you awesome random flow and if done right is virtually invisible, which is a big plus over the "chunky" power-head pumps IMO.
 
one of the big draw backs to closed loop is the pumps use so much electricity. if you want cheap flow mod a few mjs. a 1200 mj will put out 2100 gph when modded at 12 watts. my mag 9.5 is over 100 watts and only 950gph plus its way louder.
 
Ya, you'll never match the energy consumption of the new "power-heads" with a closeed loop...but you can run a closed-loop on something like the reef-flo line of pumps and get much lower wattage per gallon than something like the magdrive pumps.

I have 6 random outlets on the closed loop of my 125...I would be hard pressed to get the same type of flow from power heads...and it's virtually invisible too.

In the end...CLS vs. power heads is anther of those things that comes down to personal preference.
 
one of the big draw backs to closed loop is the pumps use so much electricity. if you want cheap flow mod a few mjs. a 1200 mj will put out 2100 gph when modded at 12 watts. my mag 9.5 is over 100 watts and only 950gph plus its way louder.

I guess my first question to all of this is to ask what kind of money are you looking to shell out for this tank? OM are very nice, but also costly, as are vortec's and tunze's. Koralias aren't controllable, unless you buy the (much) more expensive ones. The MJ mods are pretty nice...a little bulky, but overall give great results, and as Roland noted, at a pretty low cost. I had a closed loop...but barely ever used it...however, I still think they are a good idea if cost is an issue. If you run a pump like a Reeflo Dart through a manifold, you could probably go with 4-6 holes and be pumping out about 400 gph through all of them. At 150 watts, you're a little less economical...but the pumps are very well made, and deliver great results. The other thing to consider with so many holes is that when all your plumbing and locline is in the tank, you're probably looking at about $200-$300 for plumbing and $200 for a nice very gently used pump. That may seem like alot, but considering it's the same price as a single Vortec without the battery backup or the controller, it's not such a bad thing. You could also add an OM to the closed loop OR return without anything bad happening. Of course, to make that worth it, you'd want a smaller pump, and more holes in the back of your tank.

I use 2 K3's and a K1 in my 60 cube, and I get pretty great flow with that. While people will criticize stationary pumps and get all excited about "random" (better termed alternating...random would eventually blow water right at your lights and create sand storms...random is bad...I prefer to be able to control my flow to some degree) flow, I've found that my flow is anything but constant since the slight variances with the flow coming out of the pumps is multiplied exponentially as they hit the glass and each other...and I get a nice range of flow at any given spot over any given period of time.
 
If you're pushing up 13 ft., the Sequence Reeflow pumps are awesome. The flow rate doesn't drop off alot with the height and you can split the return so it enters the tank in several areas. I have the Wahoo pump on my 120gal.. The sump return line splits 4 times - 2 go to built-in loclines in the duel overflow boxes, 1 goes to a 3/4 in. sea swirl, and the final split goes to a 10 gal. quarantine/frag tank. I have a ball valve just after the pump to regulate total flow and ball valves are located just past each branch so I can control the flow to every return branch. I purchased my pump through That Fish Place during their anniversary sale 2 years ago. I don't remember what I paid; however, you can go to their web site to see when the sale is this year. I didn't want to have power heads in my display so i went with an oversized pump with several returns and the sea swirl.
 
I guess my first question to all of this is to ask what kind of money are you looking to shell out for this tank? OM are very nice, but also costly, as are vortec's and tunze's. Koralias aren't controllable, unless you buy the (much) more expensive ones. The MJ mods are pretty nice...a little bulky, but overall give great results, and as Roland noted, at a pretty low cost. I had a closed loop...but barely ever used it...however, I still think they are a good idea if cost is an issue. If you run a pump like a Reeflo Dart through a manifold, you could probably go with 4-6 holes and be pumping out about 400 gph through all of them. At 150 watts, you're a little less economical...but the pumps are very well made, and deliver great results. The other thing to consider with so many holes is that when all your plumbing and locline is in the tank, you're probably looking at about $200-$300 for plumbing and $200 for a nice very gently used pump. That may seem like alot, but considering it's the same price as a single Vortec without the battery backup or the controller, it's not such a bad thing. You could also add an OM to the closed loop OR return without anything bad happening. Of course, to make that worth it, you'd want a smaller pump, and more holes in the back of your tank.

I use 2 K3's and a K1 in my 60 cube, and I get pretty great flow with that. While people will criticize stationary pumps and get all excited about "random" (better termed alternating...random would eventually blow water right at your lights and create sand storms...random is bad...I prefer to be able to control my flow to some degree) flow, I've found that my flow is anything but constant since the slight variances with the flow coming out of the pumps is multiplied exponentially as they hit the glass and each other...and I get a nice range of flow at any given spot over any given period of time.


Koralia's new pumps coming out can be set on a timer. They look pretty nice. smaller also.
Check out Reef8uilders web site......
 
Thanks everybody!! Boy it sure is nice getting eveyones opinion, even from people who live out of state. I am begiuning to think more and more that I will not go with have a return and a closed loop. I like the idea of the OM's, but I know I don't have the money right now. (however I do accept donations) So I think I'm going to make the about 5-6 holes and conect them all with ball-valves to my return pump. Then when I can aford an OM-4 I will turn off the valves, conect the wavemaker and then fire it up at that time. I don't see any problems with that. Do you guys/gals?
 
If I'm going to be haveing a mixed reef with 4 water outlets, how much flow do I need in 90gal. tank? Do you stick with the rule of 10to1? or do you do more since it's more dispersed. I know I sound like an idiot, but I want to make sure that if I'm going to spend a couple hundered dollars on a pump, that I get the right one.
 
I have a mixed reef...probably with 1900 gph. It's 60 gallons, so I'm probably close to 30:1 with SPS up top where most of the flow goes...and LPS down lower.
 
Anywhere from 10x to 40x turnover seems to be the "norm"...some even run more than that...it depends a lot on how it's configured...the only issue I see with your "plan" is I don't see much benefit to running more than 3x-5x flow through your sump...I think the return pump should be thought of as a means to flow water through the sump for skimming etc. not for flow...then you get the flow where and how you want it via the CLS or powerheads...in order to use your return pump for all the flow short term, you'll need a lot more pump and sump flow than you really need or even want IMO...maybe you could set up the sump/return for 3x-5x turnover and drill and plumb the CLS like you suggest and just leave the valves closed...for the short term find a couple used Koralia's to add some flow...then when you can afford it add the CLS pump and turn it on and then resell the Koralia's.
 
Your maximum flow rate is ultimately determined by your drains. You can't push more water into your tank than can drain out. You can always throttle back your pump with a ball valve.
 
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