Closed loop

[Critter]

Finally got my closed loop installed.. I'm using the Quietone 4000 high head I won in the chineese auction at the last meet in Pittston PA. The out flow is ok I guess, would of liked a little more. Getting some micro bubbles every once in a while a plume of micro bubbles will shoot out? Anyone got any ideas on that... no leeks in the plumbing?

 

[Critter]

Hmm, after running the pump for about 4 hours it was so hot I couldn't hold my hand on it... What do you think, busted pump somebody dumped at the frag swap I've never run a pump outside the water before, but this thing says wet or dry application. Sigh, I guess I'll have to replace it.. I guess the bright side is, I can get a more powerfull pump now that I know what the flow is like.

 

[Barney121]

That's strange, maybe someone can comment on how hot it should get, and maybe Brad has an idea where it came from. But also, I wonder if you can find the mfg and do a warranty swap?

 

[Critter]

I'll check out the warranty idea thanks.. though sounds too good to be true

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10892784#post10892784 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Barney121
That's strange, maybe someone can comment on how hot it should get, and maybe Brad has an idea where it came from. But also, I wonder if you can find the mfg and do a warranty swap?

 

[silvers]

I have had two Quiet One 4000 and a 4000 HH both lock down on me within 6mo of purchase.

 

[insanefishguy]

I just saw a quiet one that was submerged on my friends tank get so hot the the impeller hole bulged and rippled and snapped the impeller shaft and the outside of the pump has a HUGE bulge on the bottom. I know for a fact this pump was not run dry or clogged. Why it overheated so much, we cannot figure out.

 

[CarlC]

Are you pulling water over the lip of the tank? Thats the way it looks fron the pic. If so that pump is not designed to suck, it is designed to push. The bubbles are most likely being caused by cavitation.

Carl

 

[Critter]

Ok, I wasn't aware there were differences? How can you tell if the pump is for sucking or pushing? On the cavitation, what/where would you recommend I do to alliviate it? Also, does anyone have a recommendation for another brand pump? Thanks

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10893265#post10893265 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by CarlC
Are you pulling water over the lip of the tank? Thats the way it looks fron the pic. If so that pump is not designed to suck, it is designed to push. The bubbles are most likely being caused by cavitation.

Carl

 

[Critter]

Does anyone have a closed loop similiar to mine that is having success with their pump? What pump are you using?

 

[krikor]

I was going to use one of these on a closed loop... Mabye i wont now... and use it to mix salt...

 

[Fizz71]

I had 2 closed loops like that for years. I had both pulling up and over and both pumps were hidden in the stand. One returned to a spray bar (I don't remember the model pump..it's sitting in the garage right now if you really want to know I can look..I think it was a little giant or quite one) and the other returned to a 3/4" Sea Swirl.

The sea swirl loop was originally run by a dolphin pump that was supposed to be external or internal. It ran too hot external and seized WAY too many times. Dolphin support was great, but I had to take it apart so much that I broke the one seal and now I can only use it submerged. I replaced it with on of the last T3s (or T4..I forget) before they went belly-up. Dead silent, awesome closed loop.

The first one..in which the pump name eludes me..was an external only pump with a fan.

And I'm sorry Carl but I have to disagree with you buddy. Since pumps always work faster than gravity technically ALL pumps both pull AND push (more on that later). The "over the edge" thing is a non-issue once the pump is running since gravity would continue to pull water over the edge with or without the pump just like a siphon. I had a ball like your setup and also some unions so I could stop the closed loop, remove the pump and never break the siphon...so I didn't have to re-prime.

Now I will admit that these pumps must be primed so you can kind of say that they don't "pull" in that respect. ..They can't pull air....but they can't really push it either so I still have to stay that all pumps "push and pull"

As for the bubbles..It probably has to do with your prime pipe since that will have air in it! I assume that it is somewhat sealed...so as your pump operates that prime area gets pressurized (negatively) from the water flow.

I never understood "cavatation" in a closed loop but I have heard people say that a bend right before the intake can cause problems...I had a good 6 inches of straight pipe going into my pumps so I wouldn't know.

But my guess is…..that little piece of prime pipe that you use at the top is going to always have air in it that can get pulled into the pump at any time. It should level off after a while once the negative pressure in the pipe gets up there unless that seal is a little loose then air will constantly get sucked in..not a lot..just enough to p*ss you off.

When I set mine up I had no way to prime it...on purpose. What I did was get it all setup and remove one union. Then I sucked the air out of part of the pipe and quickly locked off the T…then reconnect the union and open them all up. The whole pipe will fill and the only air left inside would be the 3 inches of return over the lip and a little bit stuck in the pump. And that gets blown out almost instantly when you turn the pump on and let 'er rip. It blows air for a few seconds but then after that it's a totally sealed totally wet (no air) loop. Then...I used the ball and unions to keep it wet even when I did maintenance to the pump!

The only reason I don't use them anymore is because I just took my system down when I moved...since I have a new one to build I didn't feel like moving then re-doing so the closed loops are now retired.

-Fizz

 

[Critter]

Thanks for the reply Fizz, most what I was thinking and feeling... I think your right about the prime pipe... its not sealed, but I got a threded end for it, so I can glue the one piece and then tape the endcap on the top. The whole thing stays primed even if I turn off my return from the sump... water stays about an inch above the intake pipe and as you said there will be some air to push out but not a biggy.. its just those micro bubbles that burst out every 10 minutes or so. Anyway, if you stumble on the name of that pump, let me know. I'll probably do some searching on here and see whos using what. I really want this to work out cause I want to remove all in-tank pumps since I lost my anenome to a maxijet mod. thanks again.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10903210#post10903210 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Fizz71
I had 2 closed loops like that for years. I had both pulling up and over and both pumps were hidden in the stand. One returned to a spray bar (I don't remember the model pump..it's sitting in the garage right now if you really want to know I can look..I think it was a little giant or quite one) and the other returned to a 3/4" Sea Swirl.

The sea swirl loop was originally run by a dolphin pump that was supposed to be external or internal. It ran too hot external and seized WAY too many times. Dolphin support was great, but I had to take it apart so much that I broke the one seal and now I can only use it submerged. I replaced it with on of the last T3s (or T4..I forget) before they went belly-up. Dead silent, awesome closed loop.

The first one..in which the pump name eludes me..was an external only pump with a fan.

And I'm sorry Carl but I have to disagree with you buddy. Since pumps always work faster than gravity technically ALL pumps both pull AND push (more on that later). The "over the edge" thing is a non-issue once the pump is running since gravity would continue to pull water over the edge with or without the pump just like a siphon. I had a ball like your setup and also some unions so I could stop the closed loop, remove the pump and never break the siphon...so I didn't have to re-prime.

Now I will admit that these pumps must be primed so you can kind of say that they don't "pull" in that respect. ..They can't pull air....but they can't really push it either so I still have to stay that all pumps "push and pull"

As for the bubbles..It probably has to do with your prime pipe since that will have air in it! I assume that it is somewhat sealed...so as your pump operates that prime area gets pressurized (negatively) from the water flow.

I never understood "cavatation" in a closed loop but I have heard people say that a bend right before the intake can cause problems...I had a good 6 inches of straight pipe going into my pumps so I wouldn't know.

But my guess is…..that little piece of prime pipe that you use at the top is going to always have air in it that can get pulled into the pump at any time. It should level off after a while once the negative pressure in the pipe gets up there unless that seal is a little loose then air will constantly get sucked in..not a lot..just enough to p*ss you off.

When I set mine up I had no way to prime it...on purpose. What I did was get it all setup and remove one union. Then I sucked the air out of part of the pipe and quickly locked off the T…then reconnect the union and open them all up. The whole pipe will fill and the only air left inside would be the 3 inches of return over the lip and a little bit stuck in the pump. And that gets blown out almost instantly when you turn the pump on and let 'er rip. It blows air for a few seconds but then after that it's a totally sealed totally wet (no air) loop. Then...I used the ball and unions to keep it wet even when I did maintenance to the pump!

The only reason I don't use them anymore is because I just took my system down when I moved...since I have a new one to build I didn't feel like moving then re-doing so the closed loops are now retired.

-Fizz

 

[Mal3]

Closed Loop

Closed Loop

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10902213#post10902213 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Critter
Does anyone have a closed loop similiar to mine that is having success with their pump? What pump are you using?

I did not read all of this thread so I am sorry if I repeat anything. I can tell you exactly what is wrong here. You have destroyed the output of the pump with your plumbing. You are making this pump work extreemly hard and that is why it is heating up.
You have at least 8 to 10 feet of head pressure on that pump. I am surprised it is putting out anything. Making that much heat will transfer to the water and heat up your tank. Not good!

I use these pumps all the time and if used properly, they do not heat up. I use them for exactly this purpose, external closed loops and return pumps on small tanks. By having that T on the output of the pump with all those bends, you have cut the pump output by 60% or more. The bubbles are cavitation because you are restricting the flow so much. It is not getting enough water because it can't push it out.

You also mentioned that you would like more output. I will tell you how to fix it.

Change the return, take off all the plumbing and change it to a one inch return. No bends. Go straight up and over into the tank, like your drain. Use one 90 and a 45 at the top. On the 45, you can put either a T or a lockline Y and split the return into two lines. I like the lockline Y. To use lockline, you have to use a threaded reducer to 3/4" to put on the lockline Y. Then you can use the lockline to move the flow in what ever direction you want. Three lockline links on each side is enough. This will increase your output by 100% from what you have now and stop the pump from heating up. You will stop the cavitation (bubbles) too.

The bubbles could be coming from your cap on the drain at the top. Be sure it is tight, no air leaks, or it will suck in air and cause bubbles. I like the screw on cap with plumbing tape to seal it to stop the air.

If you are going to the York swap I can explain this more to you there if you want.

 

[Critter]

Re: Closed Loop

Re: Closed Loop

Ok, so it looks like a trip back to HD for move PVC lol. My wife is going to be like what the heck are you doing with all that PVC.. hehe. So, for a test, I'm going to keep my up and over and down intake 1" pvc they way it is. On the return, I am going to go 3/4 to 1" straight up and over with a 90 and 45 to a T. I'll probably just throw a 45 on each end of the T for now (no lock line). If the pump does what I think it will (almost double the volume output) and doesn't heat up then I will continue using this pump. The question I have is, would there be a way other then using two pumps to run the pvc to each end so I can have apposing outputs from each side without the pump over heating? I REALLY like the way my two maxijet mods create random current in the tank.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10907584#post10907584 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mal3
I did not read all of this thread so I am sorry if I repeat anything. I can tell you exactly what is wrong here. You have destroyed the output of the pump with your plumbing. You are making this pump work extreemly hard and that is why it is heating up.
You have at least 8 to 10 feet of head pressure on that pump. I am surprised it is putting out anything. Making that much heat will transfer to the water and heat up your tank. Not good!

I use these pumps all the time and if used properly, they do not heat up. I use them for exactly this purpose, external closed loops and return pumps on small tanks. By having that T on the output of the pump with all those bends, you have cut the pump output by 60% or more. The bubbles are cavitation because you are restricting the flow so much. It is not getting enough water because it can't push it out.

You also mentioned that you would like more output. I will tell you how to fix it.

Change the return, take off all the plumbing and change it to a one inch return. No bends. Go straight up and over into the tank, like your drain. Use one 90 and a 45 at the top. On the 45, you can put either a T or a lockline Y and split the return into two lines. I like the lockline Y. To use lockline, you have to use a threaded reducer to 3/4" to put on the lockline Y. Then you can use the lockline to move the flow in what ever direction you want. Three lockline links on each side is enough. This will increase your output by 100% from what you have now and stop the pump from heating up. You will stop the cavitation (bubbles) too.

The bubbles could be coming from your cap on the drain at the top. Be sure it is tight, no air leaks, or it will suck in air and cause bubbles. I like the screw on cap with plumbing tape to seal it to stop the air.

If you are going to the York swap I can explain this more to you there if you want.

 

[krikor]

You could use a sqwd or whatever the acranym is... ha ha

 

[Critter]

I got one of those, but didn't think much of it. plus I think the inlet and outlet would be too small for the amount of flow that I want to push through.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10908323#post10908323 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by krikor
You could use a sqwd or whatever the acranym is... ha ha

 

[krikor]

if you have room you can make your own... but it would take some work... lol

http://ozreef.org/diy_plans/water_movement/wave_generator.html

Its a solid idea if implemented right.

Id love to try one but who knows how well it will work.

 

[CarlC]

And I'm sorry Carl but I have to disagree with you buddy. Since pumps always work faster than gravity technically ALL pumps both pull AND push (more on that later). The "over the edge" thing is a non-issue once the pump is running since gravity would continue to pull water over the edge with or without the pump just like a siphon. I had a ball like your setup and also some unions so I could stop the closed loop, remove the pump and never break the siphon...so I didn't have to re-prime.
[/B]

Yes but having a flooded, not siphoned, inlet will eliminate heat and have less chance of cavitation. The same reasoning goes into why we keep our return pumps in water or externally below the water line.

Carl

 

[Critter]

ok, latest update... went to HD and grabed a couple of 1" pvc pieces for this test. I am doing as was suggested, with the return going straigt up and 1 elbow to 1 45 to a T then I put a 45 on each end so I could aim the flow. The pump after about 20 minutes is getting too hot once again. So its either the pumps bad (it does make somewhat of a rattle) or the pump can't perform in this manner Ie.. it wasn't designed to work this way.

 

[Mal3]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=10912169#post10912169 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Critter
ok, latest update... went to HD and grabed a couple of 1" pvc pieces for this test. I am doing as was suggested, with the return going straigt up and 1 elbow to 1 45 to a T then I put a 45 on each end so I could aim the flow. The pump after about 20 minutes is getting too hot once again. So its either the pumps bad (it does make somewhat of a rattle) or the pump can't perform in this manner Ie.. it wasn't designed to work this way.

What you did is a big improvement. You should have much more output now. If you add more pipe on to move it to each end, then you will loose output. IT is more head pressure and you will need a larger pump for that. You should have enough output doing it this way. The T on the end is the only item of loss on the return, but it is not that much. (I know I told you to use a T) ANy time you have water slam into a wall and have to be diverted, you loose some output. (Y's are better than T's.)

These pumps sometimes do rattle when they are not getting water or there is air in the intake line. What size is the drain line. Is it 3/4 or 1"? It should be 1" and you should have it be 1" right to the pump intake. (you can even use 1.25") I have used quietone 4000, 5000, and 6000 for this application with 1" drain and returns and they work fine. The pump will get warm, as all pumps do get a little warm. How hot is it getting? Is it as hot as before? Try putting a small fan at it as an experiment, and see if that makes a difference. You can get one at Walmart for $6. You can take it back if it does not work. Did it stop making bubbles?

My only other suggestion would is to increase the intake line, make it straight, to get more water to the pump. That 90 degree turn you have about an inch from the intake of the pump is bad. It restricts flow on a 3/4" line. Get a 1" 90 degree elbo threaded and screw it direct on the pump. The other option is to have 6 inches of straight pupe before you make the 90 degree turn upwards. This gives more water to the intake.

What I am telling you are small tricks I have learned about plumbing this things that do make a difference to max out the output of the pumps and reduce head pressure. Be sure your intake in the tank is allowing enough water in and not blocked or restricted. You need to let it suck in as much water as it needs.

If you still have an extreemly hot pump after these, then contact the company and have them send you a new pump. It is possible that it could be bad. But I am telling you that these pumps can do what you are doing and they work ok. I have done it many times. If you need more help, send me an email if you want.