Cloudy Water and now Ammonia Issue

R

rinconmike

Member
I have posted on some issues in the last month or two and received helpful information, but I am still having problems with cloudy water and today I tested my water with instant ocean ammonia test and had around .2 of ammonia although two separate Seachem Ammo Alerts (one in display and one in sump) both show nothing (yellow).

I have been battling cloudy water for probably almost 6 weeks now. My Panther Grouper was acting funny today (kind looks like lying on side and looks like he is going to die) so I tested the ammonia and it was .2. I put some amquel plus in this morning to try and get rid of it. The other fish seem fine.

Before I go further, here is my setup. I am wondering if I have enough biological filtration. I have made some changes in maintenance in the last month or two and before I do anything else, wanted to see if someone can point out any concerns or ideas on the cloudy water and now ammonia spike.

My Setup:

Perfecto 150 Gallon Fish Only Tank with 2 Corner Overflows. Tank was set up on 3/7/10.

With the pump running my sump has a constant level of around 15 gallons of water and15 gallons of bioballs.

I have no live rock

Other equipment includes:

Octopus XP2000sss skimmer.
BFS Jumbo Reactor running GFO
BFS standard Reactor running Carbon
Inlandseas Nu-clear 533 canister Filter (not running a filter cartridge in it now).
JBJ 1/3 Chiller
BlueLine 55 external return pump
I use RO/DI water

The tank has two corner overflows with two outlets each. I get a lot of floating junk for a while after feeding and am wondering if I do not have enough flow moving the water. I am using a BlueLine HD 55 so I think I have a big enough pump.

The return pump (BlueLine 55) feeds a TEE that goes to the tank returns (two corner returns) and then to a valve that feeds the canister filter, from the canister filter to the JBJ chiller, then a TEE to feed the GFO reactor, from that GFO reactor to a carbon reactor and back to the sump. So with that water returns to the top of my sump from 4 tubes (the two tank corner overflows, one from the chiller, one from the reactors.

I also change my water (around 35 gallons) every two weeks and was changing canister filter and changing the GFO and Carbon every two weeks (not the same week as changing the water).

With regard to the canister filter, around 12/27/10 I started cleaning/changing it every 2 weeks. Before that I was changing it every 6-8 weeks and it was becoming biological and I had issues after any change. However, around 1/29/11 I took out the filter and did not put it in. Going on some comments here on the forum, I am trying without it.

The last time I changed out my GFO and Carbon was 1/23/11. I am trying g to see if I can get more than 2 weeks out of it (testing phosphates). Before that I was changing it every other week since December.

My fish are:

Panther Grouper (5”-6”) in tank for around 10.5 months
Snowflake Eel (18”) in tank for around 10.5 months
Porcupine Puffer (6”) in tank for around 8 months
Heniochus butterfly fish (5”) in tank for around 8 months

I feed every other day with prawns, silversides, and now I change up using prosalt carnivore mix.

I think I have been feeding too much and will now back off, but still do every other day (just less).

Photos of setup:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00678.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00679.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00680.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00681.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00682.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00684.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00685.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00686.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5728038/Fish 2011-02-13/DSC00687.jpg

One last thought is that maybe it is not water quality affecting teh panther grouper; rather, one of the other fish. The grouper is doing summersaults on and off. I had a lion that did that and wound up being killed by a trigger. got rid of the trigger shortly after. I have seen some aggression by the butterfly during feeding, that is it.


Appreciate anyone taking time to read this and hope there are some comments.
 
Last edited:
I am not sure about others, but I always have reservation on using bio ball as filtering media due to the surface area provided and it is best to use as "wet and dry filters" (can see clearly from your photo, but seems like it is fully submerged.)

Just my 2 cents, I think your filtration system is insufficient to support your bio load.
Adding chemical or doing water change will solve your problem temporary, but in long run, it is best to improve your filtration system but adding live rocks or bio media that provide larger surface area.
 
Thanks for the reply. I too am concerned that I do not have enough biological filtration. I do not want to use Live Rock though. Around Half (maybe a little more) of the bioballs are above the water line. In the first picture, on the right side of the sump you can see black tape running the length and then a red line 1/4" above the tape. This is the constant water line. The water only goes above that if I turn the pump off for maintenance.

The tank has been up for a while and only in the last 6 weeks or so have I had the cloudy water issue and now the ammonia. I did have ammonia spike several months ago when I changed the canister filter cartridge after it had not been changed for 2 months, but there are many recommendations to get rid of it so that is what I am trying to do. But I have been around 6 weeks without letting it get biological and have not had a cartridge in for around 2 weeks now.

Maybe I am over feeding. Last night I fed and still had some prawns in the tank this morning. Was about to go suck them out and then one of the fish took care of it. but there was a bit in the tank overnight.

thanks,

Mike
 
Here is the Inland Seas Nu-Clear Product.

I am wondering if I need more biological if I can use a 547 instead of my 533 (or convert my 533 to like a 547).

Does anyone think that would solve my biological issue if that is what I have?
 
i think your problem is no liverock what-so-ever, JMO. i would even replace the bioballs with LR rubble. why dont you want to use LR?
 
I wouldnt worry to much about the bioball UNLESS you know they are causing high nitrates and by that I mean 100 plus on the scale, bioballs get a bad rap in my opinion, they are great for expelling gasses and making good o2 in the water collum. Groupers are really tough fish and you need to find out if your ammonia is really high or not, .2 or 2.0 is a big difference and if ammonia was high I would think all the other fish you have would be suffering before the grouper. With ammonia spikes I used Prime till things got in check. Cloudy water could be caused by as you thought over feeding or you might want to rinse your food off good before feeding (usually the cause).
 
BTW I ran a fish only tank for a few years with no live rock before adding dead rock which became live after awhile, no problems with no rock, just thought I was doing something wrong.
 
thanks. Seachem Ammo alert says there is no ammonia. Instant Ocean Powder said 0.2 (maybe a little less). I then used amquel due to this and how the grouper was acting. An hour later I tested with Instant Ocean and it showed zero. I also tested the Nitrite with a Salifert kit and I had a trace of Nitrite (was not zero, but less than the .1 on the card). I have not tested Nitrate in a month, but the last time I tested it, it was around 40. It was up to 60 in December and I think that was due to the canister filter.

I usually rinse the frozen food with RO/DI water 3-4 times before feeding, but I have to be feeding too much. At times I give a 2" square of praus and maybe close to a 2" square of silversides. Or a the prosalt meat eater mix (has a variety) instead of silversides.

As for Live Rock, I chose not to use it at the recommendation of the LFS. I just thought it would be more of a headache. if I need to treat with something like cupramine I cannot with live rock, but can with bioballs. I did use cupramine last fall to get rid of ich.

I am wondering if the GFO could do it. Tonight I just changed my ROX carbon, but did not put the GFO in to see what happens.

I think the problem is over feeding (I am guessing) and then with the grouper, the other fish may be tormenting him. Not sure though.

thanks.
 
yea, don't waste your money on LR, bio-ball work great in FO tanks. I have been running my tanks this way for almost 20yrs presently a 210g & 465g

I forget what typical bio ball vs gallons of water ratio is. I think where your troubles is with running the canister filters (not cleaning them often enough doesn't help). From what I can tell from the pics the canisters are after the w/d filter so they are getting water that has already pass through a filter pad, no need running a micron filter there. I am not familiar with a GFO filter??

If it was me I would removed all the canisters & the 55 pump. Get a more efficient pump & see how it works. If you want to run the canisters & all that stuff I would change it every week & also run them on a separate pump so as the pump gets more head pressure your w/d still gets the same amount of flow.

I have a few of their canister filters (back when they were Ocean Clear) & I haven't used them for 0ver 10 years. If they are not changed often enough flow is greatly reduced which goes back to needing the canisters on a separate pump. You want to run 2-5x's a hour turnover through your sump so 300-750 gph is all that is needed. The BL 55 is probably 1000-1500 gph & could be flowing to much water through your w/d.
 
if you have a trace of nitrite you will have a trace of ammonia but .2 is not lethal maybe cut back on the feeding then. Is there alot of food laying around after the feeding?
 
Right now I took the filter cartrige out so the canister is there, but no media. I have it then running to a JBJ chiller, then back to the sump.

I did not think about too much flow. Not sure how much I have.

thanks
 
Typically it takes them an hour to eat most of it. I guess it depends on how much I give if I have food left the next morning like I did today. There is nothing I really see in there now. But if they stir up the sand, I do get some particles running around.
 
these aquarium fish should be doing a whole lot better with a lot less.
What temp. is your water?
What is the S.G. of your water and is your skimmer operating properly?
Why are you running GFO in a FO... is your RO unit operating properly?
What lighting on this aquarium?

Are water returns causing ripples at the surface and pointed towards overflows like they should be? Do not underestimate the benefits of water oxygenation via water movement.

jmo but I've dealt with similar situations. Set this up correctly and things will be a whole lot easier- 35 gallon changes on a 150 FO every two weeks shouldn't be necessary IMO/IME.

This is what I would do:
I would get rid of the canister filter. For MANY MANY reasons I would add liverock (it can be "dry" type but "live" is better- in any case use very large pieces).
After a couple of months removal of bioballs becomes an option HOWEVER you should ONLY remove them if ammonia and nitrites are no longer a problem.

Feedings are one of the root causes of the problem here.
See if you can get your fishes to take a "cleaner" less polluting food.
Try Spectrum jumbo pellets. Try the massivore pellets. DO NOT OVERFEED.
 
thanks. water temp is between 78 and 79.

SG is 1.019 to 1.020

I have to check on the lights, but nothing fancy.

I have GFO to get rid of phosphates to minimize algae. I need to check the water at the surface. maybe i have the returns pointing too far down. could that be an issue? Could there be too much flow?

RO/DI gets me zero TDS with two separate meters.



thanks.
 
rinconmike said:
I have GFO to get rid of phosphates to minimize algae.
Click to expand...
what lighting are you running- FO tanks don't require intense lighting.

RO/DI water should result in minimal algae growth in your aquarium and (besides) some algal growth in a FO can actually benefit the aquarium.

I haven't actually seen the water flow in your aquarium but I can tell you right now that it's not too much!

Bring S.G. up to 1.024-1.025 with something reliable like a refracto. This will make your skimmer operate more efficiently..... (it is operating 24/7 right now, correct?)
 
I have debated on bringing the SG up, maybe i wil start this week with toping off with salt water instead of RO (I read that is the way to do it).

I run the skimmer 24/7. rarely fills the cup, just a lot of gook on the neck.

Lights are solarmax ho T5. I have two 3 ft fixtures (one on each half of the tank). I only use the white light in the fixture and not the blue.

I us an apex controller and have it programmed to turn the lights on 8am to 9pm on sat and sunday, then mon-fri they are on from 7am to 8am and then 4pm to 9pm.
 
Also to read SG, I use a refractometer and also a American Marine Pinpoint Conductivity Monitor when mixing and then i have an Apex conductivity probe in the sump (and i check with the refractometer about once every 2 weeks)

also, my PH ranges from 8.1 to 8.3. there are times it dips below 8.1, but not often. i also have not calibrated the ph probe in a while and need to.
 
that skimmer should be collecting a lot of junk.

I'd bring the SG up to 1.025 before raising the water level in the skimmer or you might overflow the cup with skimmate
 
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