Clown Emergency!!

[bencozzy]

Ok heres the run down on symptoms(just got her wednesday fromanother hobbyist who has had her for quite some time)

just got a big 5" clarkii clown and looked very active and healthy in his tank get her home she looks a bit stressed normal for shipping though.

she perked up that night and was eatin flake the next day(thursday).

then forward to friday she is having some heavy panting so i test the water 0 amm and rites, 5 ppm rates, ph and alk normal. so i figure ill do some water changes and start to lower salinity.

but this morning, right now, shes on her side and very pale still panting hard??? and im at a complete loss as to what i should be doing?

ive had clowns before that would breath hard but going hyposaline usually fixes that?

im freaking out and feel like crying.

oh and theres a small clarki hich ive had seen tuesday in the tank with her his was panting a bit yesterday but is fine this morning and is trying to get her to move should i pull him??

thanks
ben

 

[BigH55]

Do you have a quarantine tank, sounds like something is completely different than the tank it came from. Get those nitrites out of there.

 

[BigH55]

It might be too late.

 

[bencozzy]

sorry didnt read what i typed but nitrite are zero and its five ppms of nitrates.

she is in the QT.

im thinking she to far gone my self but you can always hope.

 

[traveller7]

Timeline clarification:

Tuesday-Little clark in same tank as Large clark breathing heavy
Wednesday-Picked up Large clark and Little clark?
Thursday-Large clark eating flake
Friday-Large clark heavy breathing
Saturday-Large clark on it's side Little clark breathing heavy

Is that correct?

If so, I would assume some level of infection was present prior to the stress of the move.

Hypo salinity for both at a minimum. IME, large females react to ammonia much more drastically then the smaller specimens, assume you have ammonia issues and keep up the water changes, siphon left over food from the bottom, etc.

Not sure I would jump on copper or formalin at this stage, since there is little to indicate a cause at this point. I would be ready with both, especially if these fish have been exposed to recent tank additions on either side of the shipment.

Are the eyes clear or cloudy?
Any indication of discoloration on the stripes, around the head, etc.?
Any apparent pits or small holes around the head?

IME: a large clown can go days laying on its side and stand back up and recover. Don't give up until it really is over.

Best of luck.

 

[bencozzy]

Tuesday-both clowns appear healthy and fine, no problems. only have small clown at this point lg. clark still at other hobbyists tank.

Wednesday-pick up large clown, already have small clown(got small clown sunday). large clown breathing a little heavy after being removed from transport bag but goes back to normal breathing within a couple of hours.

Thursday-Large clark has it first meal at my house of flake food

Friday-Large clark breathing heavy but still active

Saturday-small clark breathing a little fast large clark breathing very heavy pale and lethargic basicly laying on its side.

Are the eyes clear or cloudy? on the large clown one eyes clouded but looks like a cateract??

Any indication of discoloration on the stripes, around the head, etc.? small clowns stripes nice and white, lg. clown a li=ttle washed out(body and tail stripe) and head stripe has a blue tint to it.

Any apparent pits or small holes around the head? no

when the small clown swims close to her she reacts be sitting up.

i really hope she pulls through.

 

[traveller7]

Small clown aquired from an LFS or other recent wholesale/retail environment?

 

[bencozzy]

yeah from a LFS

 

[traveller7]

Okay, well then it really could be any sort of bug or none at all at this point.

Hypo in an ammonia free hospital is your best near term path. I follow this regimen:
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/hyposalinity.html

Regardless of the issue, it will ease some stress.

Pay very close attention to pH and ammonia changes.

Hearing she perks up when the juvenile comes to visit is a good sign IMHO.

Until any of the following show up, I would not procede with antiparasite chemicals: spots, pits/erosion, raised scales, sliming, etc. Continued elevated breathing is definitely a concern and while I would worry about falling behind on a treatment, I am not sure of your experience with dips, baths, etc.

I suspect, a bug is going to jump out and advertise itself(brook/amyloo) or not(crypto) during the next day or so. If nothing shows up, might have been stress, an ammonia spike, or crypto which will have trouble with the hyposalinity.

I would prob consider anti biotics as a hedge against secondary infections. Have a brand you prefer and a fresh batch?

 

[bencozzy]

well heres a update she is now sitting up and has some color back.

but still breathing very hard and the small ones still breathing hard and doesnt seem to want to stay by her but wonder the tank then check on her constantly.

i have salinity at 1.012 right now ph is at 8.3 and ammonia is still showing zero one a new seachem test.

how long should i keep them in hypo?

thanks very much

 

[bencozzy]

heres a quick video of how she looks now, the little one pops in towards the end.

 

[MarinaP]

Ben,

she is done.

Clowns cannot sustain that respiration rate for long

 

[bencozzy]

thats not good but what i was thinking

what about the little one its breathing heavy and makes a quick appearance later in the vid?

will i lose them both? is there nothing i can do?

 

[MarinaP]

He is breathing fast, too. I did not want to mention that, but yes.

Ditch them both and sterilize QT w/bleach, you know the protocol.

 

[bencozzy]

what a bummer

so was it something i did to cause it? could i have done more to prevent it?

was it just bound to happen?

i might go a different direction with the tank then.

 

[MarinaP]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11870220#post11870220 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bencozzy
was it something i did to cause it? could i have done more to prevent it?

Stop banging yourself on the head. It happens. You did everything right. Go and take care of your other critters.

 

[traveller7]

Survival odds are so far against it is certainly discouraging, but I would not toss in the towel until they drop, especially considering such an outcome is not likely long.

It might just be the video, but it does not look like the female has much weight on her. That will not help in a long battle.

Male still eating? If so, I might consider feeding him heavy, giving him a FW dip, Formalin bath, and putting him into a new barebottom tank all by himself. Toss up as to whether I would add copper and antibiotics to the new tank.

 

[bencozzy]

male still has a good appetite.

ill give the dip and such a go with him.

female could be fatter but shes not thin by any means.

 

[bencozzy]

ok well female passed

did the FW dip and formalin bath on the male and now he looks as bad as the female did but he is still swimming.

i got new test for ammonia and nitrite to make sure mine were good and well they gave me the same results zero for both, got 15ppm on nitrates though(test were API).

 

[bencozzy]

ok well before i went to bed last night the little guy was on his side and pale still breathing hard.

but well his swimming now, breathing has slowed a ton.

i should feed him heavy correct? and how long in hypo before i start raising salinity?

thanks
ben