Clownfish mysterious death

[jungle321]

Hi
At the beginning of March I set up 25 gallon saltwater aquarium (18x18x18 including the DIY filtration panel,20g display tank) I kept the aquarium cycling (I added bacteria daily and later on, weekly until I ran out of the bacteria).In April I added first corals (Green star polyp, purple sea whip, and palythoa) , snails and blue legged hermit crabs. The hermit crabs disappeared after week, and the snail died month after purchase. The corals seem to be doing just fine. In June (6.20) I went to local fish store and I tested my water for ammonia, nitrates, and nitrite (all 3 were undetectable) and the salinity was 1.024 .
So I decided to buy 2 clownfish, I acclimated them by floating the bag for 10 minutes and then by adding cup of water after every 10 minutes for 40 minutes (They seemed to be stressed because they were breathing rapidly). After that time I added the fish to the tank, and after couple of hours I found both of the clownfish dead. I went back to the store to talk to the LFS owner to ask him if he could help me figure out what was wrong. We tested the water and the parameters were still alright . After couple of suggestions from a store owner I went back home with chemical absorber (it changed color to brown after week). I also checked with multimeter to see if the issue was not caused by electricity, and as it turned out there was more than 30v (of which most came out of the heater) so I replaced the heater and I also added a grounding probe (it solved the issue). So after the issue seemed to be solved I started buying new animals (one at a time) turbo snail and hermit crabs (all of them are still alive and appear to be in good shape). Since everything was doing just fine I decided to go and get new clownfish (only one to check if it will survive), the ammonia and nitrites were undetectable (I did the tests at LFS to be 100% sure) . I acclimated the clown fish the same way as I did before and it also was breathing rapidly but I thought that it was due to stress caused by change in environment, the poor clown fish was dead after 13 hours.
At this point I have no idea what to do and I am asking for help to solve this issue.
Thank you for time you take to read this.

 

[RioReefr]

Maybe you should attach a photo of what your aquarium looks like, your setup.

1.) Clownfish are very hardy. If they are breathing heavy, it is ammonia, nitrites or lack of oxygen in the water. Possibly Nitrates, but Clownfish can survive high levels of Nitrates.

2.) Do you have a protein skimmer or air-stone to oxygenate the water. OR at the very least have a wave-maker pointed at the surface to allow gas exchange?

3.) Personally, I would not depend on a LFS for testing water parameters. Do it yourself. Some of these stores hire kids who just need a job. They don't know nor care about things like "calibration". There are a few labs you can send your water to and they do a complete analysis. It is not much, something around 50 bucks. ATI or TritonLabs.

 

[blowmecius]

If they are breathing heavy, it is ammonia, nitrites or lack of oxygen in the water.

Yes.

Poly filter will turn yellow in the presence of ammonia so probably not that. Chloramine poisoning will exhibit the same symptoms as nitrite poisoning. Is there Chloramine in your source water or top off water? Lack of oxygen is your other possibility.

I also agree the test results are suspect. If your nitrogen cycle is complete and the lack of ammonia seems to confirm that, there should be measurable nitrate. Get your own test kits and learn to use them.

Look toward lack of oxygen or nitrite/chlorine/Chloramine poisoning.

 

[jungle321]

1) I got the water tested at LFS and ammonia,and nitrites are undetectable. Nitrates are near 0.
2)I do not have protein skimmer or air stone. The wave maker is pointed at water surface so it moves all the time. If it was oxygen issue wouldn’t it also affect corals, snails, and hermit crabs?
3)The LFS is very good, the only people that work there are store owner and his wife so there’s no kids that don’t care (after clownfish died for the first time the store owner tried to help me solve the issue and said that once the issue is resolved he will give me the clownfish for free, someone that doesn’t care would not do such thing). They both seem very knowledgeable, and helpful. For testing they use Salifert tests. I’m not very familiar with the procedure of buying and sending ICP tests but I will try to look in to it...
I also want to mention that the fish at some point after introduction into the tank behaved like if it was poisoned or sick (it had trouble keeping balance). And since it died within hours, there probably had to be something toxic that killed the fish...

 

[Sk8r]

Do not try any more fish until you get this solved. Plus---quarantine your new arrivals. Acclimation is 100% about salinity matching. If your salinity matches the bag water salinity, skip acclimation and move the fish to the tank. DO, however, float the unopened bag for 15 minutes before opening the bag.

 

[Timfish]

To reiterate you really do need to get your own tests and be comfrotable testing your ssytem. In addition to the above comments I would consider stress as a possible factor. Your tank and acclimation process seems to be ok although personally I prefer a 4-6 hour slow drip in a bucket with an airstone to acclimate fish. Having 3 out of 3 die that quickly I would also be looking at some form of stress prior to you arriving home. Did the bags get warm in transit? were they in the bag too long? (My guess is no to both question but it needs to be asked.) What were the conditions at the LFS? Was there an established aggressive fish in with the clowns? (I've seen LFS keep "dither fish" in tanks and even small damsels can terrorize much larger fish.) You could test the water in the bag (or garb a sample of the LFS water) as soon as you get home to see if the problem is the water chemistry in the bag. Unfortunately you also can't rule out sick fish at the LFS so maybe ask around and try a different LFS.

 

[jungle321]

I use water (RODI and saltwater ) from LFS and they use exactly the same water (they use RedSea salt) there’s chloramine in this water (if it was issue of the water I don’t they would be able to use it in their store or sell it to people without any issues with customers...). The low nutrients are most likely caused by the fact that I waited too long with introduction of life in to the tank...
I will try to post photo and setup information later on this day.

 

[jungle321]

I’m sorry for the the mistake, I meant that there is NO chloramine in the water

 

[jungle321]

Maybe I should not do it (I hope no one will have any issue with that) but I will give link to the other forum where I asked the same question. That might help with some questions that I already answered there:
https://www.*********.com/threads/clownfish-mystery-death.746845/#post-7814237

 

[jungle321]

Oh, so it blocks the link...The filtration panel is made out of black plexiglass.
I always buy saltwater (if I remember well, they use Red Sea salt) from LFS and I also use RODI water from that place (so I would assume that the salinity level would be the same or very similar since they use same water).
The tank was set up in March.
1.024- I use the hydrometer Accuprobe Aquarium Solutions (shows same readings as the refractometer from LFS).

What tests should I do?
I’m wondering what would have to be in water to kill fish that fast...
Would it make sense to use activated carbon filter ?

The tests that I currently use show around pH 8.0 (although the tests I use are inaccurate, that’s why I rely on tests from LFS)
If the pH was bad wouldn’t it affect corals too?

No, in the filter I only find algae that I scrape off the glass. The plexiglass was not marked as reef safe but I cleaned it very well to make sure there’s nothing on the surface of it and as fas as I know many people use plexiglass and acrylic sheets in aquariums.

Did I actually mentioned that the salinity is different in my LFS? If I wrote anything not clearly I’m very sorry. What I meant is that since I use same saltwater as the LFS does, then I should have identical or very similar salinity.
Yes, I continued replacing the polyfilter but now it stays nearly white.
For substrate I use Caribsea Aragonite, and I use dry rock from LFS (they use exactly the same rock in their tanks) everything was new.
For topping the tank off I use RODI water from LFS so I assumed it was fine (and I don’t really anything to test that water).I do it manually but frequently.
My LFS is about 25 minutes away from my house. I’m not really sure when the clownfish started breathing rapidly, but I think it started when I started adding the water into the bag. At first I didn’t pay much attention to the breathing because it looked like if the fish was stressed ( I had some experience with freshwater fish and it looked pretty similar like a stressed freshwater fish). The first time the clown fish died I didn’t how they behave (I only found dead fish later on that day), but this time I noticed the fish at some point had trouble keeping balance -shortly before it died-(it was terrible to watch the fish and have no idea how to save it...) ,like if it was poisoned from something or like if it was sick.

The only thing that comes to my mind is the filtration panel, the pvc pipe (the one that is for drinkable water only), and the 3D printer parts (Hatchbox PLA) but all these things are used by many people in their tanks...
How do I do an ICP test , I’m not really familiar how to get it and where to send the water sample.
I very appreciate all the responses!

So here are my responses to the questions...

 

[jungle321]

As for the setup:
I use dry rock from my lfs
Caribsea Aragonite for the substrate
18x18x18 rimless aquarium with DIY filtration panel out of black plexiglass (25g in total)
QUIET ONE PRO 200 to power filtration
Jebao wave maker TW-10
For light RedSea 90 running on less than 50% of the power
Preset 50w Aqueon heater
I also use 3D printed parts (Hatchbox PLA)

 

[blowmecius]

The additional info helps.

Could be ammonia buildup in the bag but an hour in the bag shouldn't be too bad. Don't open the bag until after floating.

Just because they sell 1.024 water does not mean that their tanks are at 1.024. I have never seen a LFS keep their tanks that salty. Salt = money. Usually they are 1.017-1.018. I have seen as low as 1.015.

Here is how I acclimate: When you get the fish home, turn lights off and float for 25 minutes. I always have a quarantine tank set at 1.020 and adjust that up or down as warranted. I open the bag and dump the fish and water into an acrylic container, a 5 gallon bucket will work. CHECK THE SALINITY. Add 1/2 cup tank water every 4 minutes until volume doubles then dump half the bag water and repeat until salinity matches your tank. Start using a whole cup after 3 minutes if you need to. This whole process should take less than an hour.

Tim's drip method works well and may be necessary if the salinity difference is large, but I adjust my quarantine tank ahead of time so there is not much of a swing.

Before you buy a fish ask them to show you the salinity of their tank to get an idea of the difference.

Sorry for you bad luck so far I hope it works out next time.

 

[Oldreeferman]

You really ought to get a skimmer...... even a small one, need it anyway. You can not easily test for oxygen like the other tests but its result is pretty obvious. And a skimmer adds about 90% of the total oxygenation necessary to the sys. Powerheads do not, all they do is move the water providing currents & help remove carbon dioxide at the surface in exchange, but does nothing far as adding oxy. You need that fine bubbling only a skimmer can provide & air stones are for emergencies, an eye sore but necessary if medicating a DT or electrical loss etc sometimes.

 

[jungle321]

Hi! I changed couple of things in my tank. I removed all 3D printed parts and added activated carbon. I also added protein skimmer and moved wave maker to add more movement to the surface of the water ( before there was very little movement ). I bought clownfish on Saturday and another one on Tuesday, both fish are alive and seem happy. So I think I solved the problem!

 

[wrott]

Always check SG of bag water first, this is most likely the culprit as Sk8r and others said.
Going from low to high is a killer.