Clowns and HLLE

[travis32]

O.k. I did some reading on Marine HLLE because I currently have a clown with it. I also believe that I had a previous clown die of HLLE.

All the information I could find, indicated that Clowns are highly, if not the most susceptible fish to get HLLE in captivity. Some of the articles indicated, that clowns for unknown reasons have an innate weakness to getting HLLE or always have it and develop symptoms later in life.

My other fish are fine, with no signs of HLLE, Ich, or any other parasites. They eat extremely healthy, (meaning a lot.)

My one clown has numerous pits around his head and a line extending from his eyes. Looks like classic HLLE. And he won't eat. He'll grab mysis try to eat it, then spit it out.. He's eaten this way since he showed signs of HLLE about 3months ago. My other clown, is doing great, but, showing signs of something wrong. He used to eat a lot, and now won't eat much. No other visible signs yet, but, I'm afraid in a month or two he'll also develop HLLE.

Everything I read indicated that the fish doesn't have much chance unless it's treated, but nothing indicated what the treatment is for HLLE?

I bought some ELOS vitamin enrichment drops that I'm adding to the brine and mysis mix I feed.

The tank is stress free of any predators. Water conditions remain stable. or else the Anemone, clam, and SPS corals would be showing signs of stress.

I'm planning to do 15% water changes every 2 weeks. I've got lots of macro algae to take care of nitrates and phosphates. And run a GFO reactor.

One of the potential causes of HLLE (in fish highly susceptable to it) is running carbon. I run a bag of carbon in my sump. I didn't have a way of hooking it up to moving water, so the carbon just floats in the bag in the sump.

Do I just remove the carbon and see if the HLLE improves?

What are possible treatments for HLLE? Or is there none?

Thanks for any info!

 

[Chris27]

Is that all you feed your fish, Brine Shrimp and Mysis? If so, you may want to mix up the diet a bit. Clowns need a good deal of meaty food, and while mysis is a good choice, brine shrimp is not, they are next to worthless in the way of nutrition. Figure them to be like candy bars for us.

Clean water, proper nutrition, and treatment of any secondary infections are what you need to reverse HLLE. Given that you indicate your water quality is working for your nem, sps and clam, I can assume it's nice and clean....so next is nutrition.

Another potential cause of HLLE is stray voltage, but the verdict is still out on that one for me.....as is the use of carbon. I use carbon and always have, and I recently adopted a purple tang with severe HLLE which has started to reverse....despite 24/7 use of carbon.

HLLE is not something that will kill a fish, a follow on infection of sorts will though. It is reversible, despite the fact that you can't directly treat it with any meds.

At this point, it may not be a bad idea to move all your fish to QT, leaving the display fallow for 5-6 weeks. If clown after clown is going down the tubes in your tank, there is something going on in there. FWIW, clowns are the some of the most hearty fish you can find, I've seen them in downright poor tanks looking happy and healthy. I've had quite a few, and have yet to see one with HLLE.....now tangs and angles....they get it simply by looking at a tank of foul water without being in it.

 

[travis32]

That's the weird thing. I have a bristletooth tang. Cleaner wrasee, Sleeper Goby. and a Marine betta. All of them appear healthy.

It's only clowns I have issues with. I've lost 2 clowns. 1 clown in my QT, and 1 in my DT.

I haven't lost any other fish, just clowns.

Is there something species specific?

I do change it up.. I'm just adding the elos vitamins to the frozen shrimp. I'm also feeding veggie flakes, Ocean nutrition prime reef flakes, I have a constant supply of sea lettuce for fish to nibble on (no one does though not even the tang). I have also feed gel cyclopeeze.

I have some freeze dried Krill I hand feed my anemone and My marine betta. The clowns try to nibble on it, but it's too big for them...

My marine betta eats it in hiding (I place it in his cave once a week or so.)

So, I don't know what else to do for the clowns.. I QT all fish before putting them in the DT. this clown that has HLLE, I put him through hypo even at 1.008 to 1.009 for 6 weeks. (I put all my fish through that when I transferred from my 55 to my 125g.).
The new tank was fallow and fishless for at least 6 weeks, maybe longer..

If it's clowns I can't have, I'll just forgo them, but, I don't know why just clowns. Some articles I read that clowns are the most susceptible fish to HLLE.. Along with tangs.

My tang is awesome and doesn't show any signs yet.

 

[ReeferBill]

HLLE Treatment?

HLLE Treatment?

Hi Travis 32 ; I would stop running carbon (never have and never will) add a refugium with Miracle Mud and start feeding a much more varied diet and presoak all food with Selcon Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!:fish2:

 

[Chris27]

Hi Travis 32 ; I would stop running carbon (never have and never will) add a refugium with Miracle Mud and start feeding a much more varied diet and presoak all food with Selcon Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!:fish2:

I've run carbon for many years, as have many of my reefing friends, it's very difficult to intelligently come to the conclusion that carbon causes HLLE.

Also, not sure why a refugium packed full of Miracle Mud would make a difference, could you explain why you suggested that?

 

[Chris27]

That's the weird thing. I have a bristletooth tang. Cleaner wrasee, Sleeper Goby. and a Marine betta. All of them appear healthy.

It's only clowns I have issues with. I've lost 2 clowns. 1 clown in my QT, and 1 in my DT.

I haven't lost any other fish, just clowns.

Is there something species specific?

I do change it up.. I'm just adding the elos vitamins to the frozen shrimp. I'm also feeding veggie flakes, Ocean nutrition prime reef flakes, I have a constant supply of sea lettuce for fish to nibble on (no one does though not even the tang). I have also feed gel cyclopeeze.

I have some freeze dried Krill I hand feed my anemone and My marine betta. The clowns try to nibble on it, but it's too big for them...

My marine betta eats it in hiding (I place it in his cave once a week or so.)

So, I don't know what else to do for the clowns.. I QT all fish before putting them in the DT. this clown that has HLLE, I put him through hypo even at 1.008 to 1.009 for 6 weeks. (I put all my fish through that when I transferred from my 55 to my 125g.).
The new tank was fallow and fishless for at least 6 weeks, maybe longer..

If it's clowns I can't have, I'll just forgo them, but, I don't know why just clowns. Some articles I read that clowns are the most susceptible fish to HLLE.. Along with tangs.

My tang is awesome and doesn't show any signs yet.

Knowing that, you can forget about my QT suggestion, it sounds as if you did a fine job of that.

The only other suggestion I have is to mix up the food a bit, rid your cabinet of the flake and pellet food, and start feeding some frozen varieties. H2O Ocean makes a very nice food, as does Rod's, I also like the Marine and SW formulas from Ocean Nutrition, but with those you'll def. want to strain them first. Selcon, Vitachem, Zoe and some other soaks are also a vital factor in healthy feeding, most foods can benefit from additional vitamins and fatty acids.

 

[travis32]

The 125 has been up now since the weekend before thanksgiving, since 11/20. I had the fish in QT while the 125 cycled, and I had all the corals from the previous owner's 125g, in the 55g that had just finished cycling. The rock, corals, and everything had been fallow in the 55 for over 7 weeks now that I think about it. About 4 weeks before I got the 125, and another 3 weeks for the 125g to cycle once I set it up.

In that timeframe I had brought the fish down to hypo for 4 weeks then brought the SG back up slowly.

Just reconfirming my timeline. This clown that has HLLE, I've had before the 55g crashed, he was still in QT when the 55g crashed.. So, he's going on between 5-6 months old. I had had him in QT and was just about to transfer him when the tank crashed.

I'll have to see if My LFS's carry those foods. I have a ton of foods already that I feel like I don't go through..

I was also wondering about frozen shrimp for people? Would it be more nutritious? Better tasting, and better for the fish? IF so, how do you get it small enough. I tried it once, and cut it into what I thought were tiny bits, but in the tank they were a lot bigger than I thought.

Or can I blend some of the shrimp with RODI water and kinda make a "chum" that's feedable as more of a liquid? I'm open to changing the diet, I'm not sure how accessible those foods are to me, unless Petco or Petsmart sells them.

 

[Toddrtrex]

Hi Travis 32 ; I would stop running carbon (never have and never will) add a refugium with Miracle Mud and start feeding a much more varied diet and presoak all food with Selcon Good Luck!!!!!!!!!!!!:fish2:

I had a pair of Clarkii for 12+ years, and ran carbon the whole time -- never used MM, and they never had HLLE. In fact none of my clowns (( or other fish for that matter )) have ever had HLLE, and been using carbon since 1992.

 

[Chris27]

The 125 has been up now since the weekend before thanksgiving, since 11/20. I had the fish in QT while the 125 cycled, and I had all the corals from the previous owner's 125g, in the 55g that had just finished cycling. The rock, corals, and everything had been fallow in the 55 for over 7 weeks now that I think about it. About 4 weeks before I got the 125, and another 3 weeks for the 125g to cycle once I set it up.

In that timeframe I had brought the fish down to hypo for 4 weeks then brought the SG back up slowly.

Just reconfirming my timeline. This clown that has HLLE, I've had before the 55g crashed, he was still in QT when the 55g crashed.. So, he's going on between 5-6 months old. I had had him in QT and was just about to transfer him when the tank crashed.

I'll have to see if My LFS's carry those foods. I have a ton of foods already that I feel like I don't go through..

I was also wondering about frozen shrimp for people? Would it be more nutritious? Better tasting, and better for the fish? IF so, how do you get it small enough. I tried it once, and cut it into what I thought were tiny bits, but in the tank they were a lot bigger than I thought.

Or can I blend some of the shrimp with RODI water and kinda make a "chum" that's feedable as more of a liquid? I'm open to changing the diet, I'm not sure how accessible those foods are to me, unless Petco or Petsmart sells them.

If the good food isn't available locally, you can just make your own. Making your own food is rewarding, messy, stinky, cost effective, and sure to **** off your significant other.....but it's great to do for your tank buddies.

First off, don't use a blender, you'll fry the motor about half way through unless it's a Cuisinart and it cost $400 retail.

Using a food processor, I toss in some shrimp, oysters, clams, fish, squid and whatever else I can find at the store.....chop it up good....depending on the processor....run it for a min or so. You want a chunky mush, not a puree.

After that rinse the hell out of it with RO until the water runs clear. Throw it in a bowl and set it aside.

At that point, I like to thaw and rinse some commercial frozen food like mysis, brine, plankton, krill, bloodworms, etc...when the water runs clear from that I toss that in the bowl with the other seafood mush and mix it all together with some vitamins, amino acids, vitamin C, and garlic. Put it in some ziplocks and freeze it. If you have a whole bunch of coral, you can experiment with some oyster feast, coral frenzy or the like, but too much of that stuff will polute your water in short order, so be careful.

Your clown has HLLE, it's not the end of the world, it's definitely reversible, keep the water clean, and feed them well and you'll be good to go.

 

[travis32]

Nope not the end of the world. Though it may be the end of his world.

He was doing o.k. starting to eat more visibly, and starting to look a little better. Then suddenly about 2 days ago, he took a turn for the worse. The clown pair completely split up. The other smaller clown won't go near him. He's on the opposite side of the tank. Standing at the bottom of the tank under a toad stool and comes out a little when I feed. but for the most part just kind rests himself on the sand bed.

He looks extremely pale, and extremely lethargic. Being that I rarely see him visibly eat. I'm not sure what he actually eats. Or how he's survived the last 4 months without eating. My wife wants me to flush him. I prefer to let nature take it's course if he really is going to die.

But with the other clown starting to not eat much. I'm not sure if they're finding other food in the tank that they like better, or if it's starting to get HLLE as well. I don't know that it's contagious, but, it's very strange that it's just the clowns acting this way.

 

[travis32]

quick update. Anchor worms.

The description of this sounds like what I am seeing the clown. However, The pictures don't look like it.

I noticed 2 white worms sticking out of the side of the clown with HLLE. They are visibly poking out of the side of the fish in two spots. Small white worms. The thickness appears to be about that of a fingernail and the length protruding is maybe 1/16th of an inch. They would almost resemble ich, except this is on the physical body of the fish and there's only 2 spots. Not "salt and pepper" look. Plus they are highly visibly sticking out.

I noticed the other clown had 1 of these white worm like things sticking out of him too. No HLLE on him though.

Problem is that the pictures online don't really reflect the worms on my clowns.

I guess I'm scared, if these are contagious parasites that will be over time infesting all fish? Or they aren't like Ich in that they just are content to stay in the fish they're in, then die when the fish dies...

Problem is unless I get a 100% sure on the diagnosis. I can't do a proper treatment. The anchor worms I think it said to us a 20 minute potassium bath.. I'm not sure how that would be even done. I could try a freshwater dip I guess. to see if it's flukes or something like that.

errg. The fish is getting extremely pale in color. breathing heavier. Swimming more than usual, still not eating.

 

[travis32]

Well, Clown 1 is dead. His body floated into a crevice and I'm unable to get to him without removing rock work. One of the rocks I need to remove is where my anemone is partially attached to the rock and partially attached to the sand... I can't really get the corpse out without damaging stuff...

My other clown I confirmed tonight also has HLLE. The rigeline of holes across the top of his head is just forming now.

I'm at a loss of what to do or how to treat.

Stats as they were on Saturday:

Alk was a little low at 2.5 meq/l.
MG was at 1700 (Keeping it high to combat HA).
Ca was at 480.
SG was around 1.026-1.027.
Temp stays around 78.
PH is as high as 8.3 during the day and as low as 8.17 during the night.

I have an average of 400-500 Watts of Halides running 9 - 10 hours a day.
2 6ft VHOs for actinics.

125 gallons, with a 5 " DSB in the sump sand bed, and 3-4" sand bed in the DT.

I honestly don't know what to do. I'm guessing in about 8 -10 weeks this clown will also be dead. That's 3 -4 clowns in the last 5 months.

I've only got 6 fish in the tank. I'm at whits end of what to do, other than to just sell the remaining fish, and go fishless for a few months. I can't justify adding any fish until I know what's in there killing stuff.

 

[travis32]

Any, suggestions on any deadly diseases or parasites that affect only clowns? Is this something that's going to kill every clown I have forever? Is it contagious to other species if my current fish appear to be immune?

Any suggestions on what I can check for? If I go a month or two without any clowns will the parasites or disease (virus whatever) die off and burn out? or will it forever be in the tank?