Clowns won't pair up

[keithrett]

Heres the story

Aquapod 24 with 30lb of live rock

I purchased two baby ORA picasso percula clowns from my LFS a while ago and kept them together in hopes that they would pair up. After about a year they were still fighting and it seemed to be getting worse so I decided to remove the overly aggressive female and buy another juvenile percula. The male quickly discovered the new clown and started slightly picking on it but nothing too serious. There older clown is about 2.5" and the newer clown is roughly 2". Well its been about 9 months now and the older clown still picks on the newer clown to the point where the newer clown hides behind a clam most of the time. I have seen the newer clown demonstrate submissive behavior when being attacked by the older clown but this has been going on for a few months and they still haven't paired up. This isn't my first pair of clowns and with my other pair they fought for a while and paired up quickly. (within a month after the fighting started) The newer clown is perfectly healthy and still eats like a little pig but I feel bad that it is restricted to living behind a clam all the time.

Should I leave them be for a while longer or remove the older clown and try another juvenile clown?

Please feel free to ask questions if I missed anything.

Thanks in advance for the help
Keith

 

[keithrett]

bump

 

[keithrett]

Another bump. About to remove the older clown and just keep one clown in the tank. Please help

 

[Angel*Fish]

What do you mean by fighting? Are we talking ripped fins?

 

[keithrett]

No, by fighting I mean the older clown will rush the smaller clown and corner him behind a clam. Then after a second the larger clown will back off and swim away. Sometime after being corned when the larger clown swims away the small clown will follow the older clown and nudge it as it swims off. (anyone heard of behavior similar to this?) Other times after being cornered the smaller clown will twitch but even demonstrating this submissive behavior doesn't keep the larger clown from rushing the small clown. (I have noticed the twitching before starting a few months ago) The smaller clown doesn't have any ripped/torn fins and is able to get food whenever the tank is fed, he is healthy but just doesn't come out much due to being picked on.

Thanks for the response and sorry I was unclear about what I meant by fighting

 

[Angel*Fish]

It's hard to say, but that sounds kind of normal. Where does each fish spend most of its time?

 

[keithrett]

Yea thats what I was thinking. The behavior sounds normals but the period of time that this behavior has been present seems longer than normal. Both fish are in a nano tank with a U-shaped style of rock work which creates 4 zones. Left of the U, center of the U-shape, right of the U, and the open water above the U-shape. (sorry if that didn't make sense) The smaller fish always stays on the left side of the U-shape rock work (except during feeding when it darts around eating) and the larger clown swims freely around the tank in all zones. At night the small clown sleeps on the left side of the tank and the larger clown sleeps on the right side of the tank.

Thank you for your help so far it is greatly appreciated

 

[Angel*Fish]

I don't have experience with clowns without a host of some kind. Someone else will have to chime in. A female clown is always going to rush at the male and exact a submissive response from him. She'll do that and then he kind of nuzzles her. That's normal.

This is going to sound crazy, but what do you keep your pH at? I was reading an article the other day that said lower pH's can cause clowns to have problems with their sense of smell. I don't know if that's for just a developing fish or if it can have an effect any time. Probably your pH is fine anyway

Here is my guess - the little clown just doesn't have the drive to court her --yet. Also, maybe the bigger one is slow in becoming fully female. The other thought is you've had this happen twice, so it could just be your perception of the situation maybe? Or since the other common denominator is the first two were tank bred, maybe they are both "duds" -lol. However, that seems really really unlikely though theoretically possible.

My suggestion until someone else can answer better is google clownfish videos. Try to find ones where they are not in the process of spawning.

 

[keithrett]

My pH usually ranges from 7.9 (night) to 8.1 (day) I know its a little low but so far my corals don't seem to mind so why try to fix something that isn't broken. lol I will google low pH effects on clownfish's ability to smell. It sounds interesting.

Thanks for the list of possible causes. The small clown is probably about a year (+/- a few months) so perhaps he is still too young. I have had my original pair of clowns for about 6 years now and when they were in the pairing process they fought for a while then paired up pretty quickly which is why this whole not pairing thing struck me as unusual. It was my understanding that after they establish their dominance they will sleep in the same area and eventually begin spawning (which is what my other pair did before they starting spawning) But since the base of my experience is with a single pair of clowns I will try looking up some videos. YouTube here I come, lol.

Thanks again for the help, I was beginning to think no one would chime in. lol

 

[Angel*Fish]

Well I knew I wasn't the best person, but usually if I say anything wrong at all then a hundred people will suddenly appear to give the correct info. So if I answer at all, it's usually helpful in the long run lol. I don't have much more clown experience than you. I had maroons and then ocellaris - all wild.

I had noticed that you said something about having had them before -but I never imagined it was 6 years -- I think my video idea is a waste of time.

If there's an anemone, the male is very motivated to sleep with her. But in the absence of that maybe there's not as much reason. As you probably know, the female is in charge of if and when the male is allowed on there and he always has to show acquiescence. She's more agreeable to that if she's trying to get a little shut eye :lmao:

 

[Angel*Fish]

You don't think the pH got too low at ORA from the batch yours were from, do you?

This article says a pH as high as 7.8 will cause changes http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsc...oceans_prevent_baby_clownfish_from_findin.php
"In this slightly more acidic water, the clownfish were still drawn to the smells of anemones and rainforest trees, but to a weaker degree. And this time, they were also attracted to the smells of the grass, and even the strongly smelling swamp tree that they so thoroughly avoided earlier. In normal water, they totally avoided Melaleuca-infused water, but at a pH of 7.8, they spent more than 80% of their time in it."

If I were in your situation I would not be able to resist experimenting with raising the pH. Tank stability be damned! :lmao:

 

[Samcro]

it can take up to months for a clown to finally submit. with your new clown that is about 2" which means its older than most juvi's when shipped to the store. since its bigger, it could have been in the process of turning female and since your larger ones is a female and the newer one is aslightly smaller, it still might think its big enough to challange for the female spot and its gonna take a while longer to submit. if you got one about 1" then it would submit sooner cause of the size difference.


i have a snowcasso and picasso pair. when i added the picasso it was a male from another pair. i thought for sure my snowcasso was a female cause of the time alone and the last mate was smaller. well i was really looking at them the other day and now my picasso is bigger than the snowcasso so i think they reversed their roles. which is fone with me cause most of the good genes come from the male anyways.

 

[keithrett]

Well the smaller one has grown a bit since it was first introduce into the tank with the older clown. The smaller clown was purchased from Doni last summer and since you mentioned you had a snowcasso I'm sure you know about how big it was when I first got it. The other clown hasn't really increased in size since the smaller clown was introduced. I was assuming the size/age difference would promote a quick pairing but I guess I was wrong. lol The smaller one twitches when the female gets after him but it just seems that the female isn't accepting him yet.

And since no thread is complete without pictures here he is. lol

 

[dirk_brijs]

my experience tells me that the best way to create a pair is to buy several clowns at the same time and let them go their way.
As soon a pair is formed the other ones need to be removed cause killings will become regular from that day on.