Club Frag Tank
- Thread starter vvolfe1
- Start date
Atticus
New member
I believe the fastest killer of interest in this hobby is lack of funding and a lack of change/excitment. This program would get otherwise unobtainable frags into people's hands, support a sharing community, and would allow us to bring in more rare items through the club fund pool. Those rare items would then be split to multiple members making them more likely to survive and be accessable to everyone in our area. Before the first few people with the bank roll and desire brought blue torts, bonsai, and sunset montis into the area we could only dream of having these corals. Now they are here. Many people have recieved frags of these corals and now the coral will not be lost to the club/state if it happens to die in one person's tank. It is like tank insurance where everyone benefits.
As for bad husbandry, I believe I already explained my view on that topic. It can't be that much more stressful for a coral to be broken once it arrives. Heck it has been ripped from the reef, shipped to a wholesaler, shipped to a retailer, shipped to you, and still survived. I also believe it is each individuals responsibility to have a QT tank of their own and QT anything before they put it into their system.
I believe this is an idea that is above one individual's decision. I believe it should be put to a popular vote. The positive benefits of this program for the group far out weigh the possible loss of financial gain by a few individuals.
As for bad husbandry, I believe I already explained my view on that topic. It can't be that much more stressful for a coral to be broken once it arrives. Heck it has been ripped from the reef, shipped to a wholesaler, shipped to a retailer, shipped to you, and still survived. I also believe it is each individuals responsibility to have a QT tank of their own and QT anything before they put it into their system.
I believe this is an idea that is above one individual's decision. I believe it should be put to a popular vote. The positive benefits of this program for the group far out weigh the possible loss of financial gain by a few individuals.
Last edited:
bgreenlee
Member
I am really surprised by the amount of opposition here. We are trying to improve availability of rare or expensive corals for the entire club. I know that not everyone on here can afford a couple hundred dollars to get some rare coral, and being able to get those into our hand seems to be a huge benefit for me.
I would suggest that a group of us put this together outside of GIRS. We can then choose how to manage this, choose how to distribute/sell frags, and contain it to only those people who want to be a part of it. Once fully established we can just rent a table at the frag swaps and/or sell at the auctions as any other party could. If we can get a few members at the onset of this to either donate a little money, frags, space, time, or any mix of the four I think we can make it work.
As far as wanting anything for rearing corals in my tank, I already have all the equipment running, already do a set amount of water changes, and do all the necessary items for proper husbandry anyway, the value of enjoying the beauty of the coral far outweighs the cost to maintain it in my eyes.
I would suggest that a group of us put this together outside of GIRS. We can then choose how to manage this, choose how to distribute/sell frags, and contain it to only those people who want to be a part of it. Once fully established we can just rent a table at the frag swaps and/or sell at the auctions as any other party could. If we can get a few members at the onset of this to either donate a little money, frags, space, time, or any mix of the four I think we can make it work.
As far as wanting anything for rearing corals in my tank, I already have all the equipment running, already do a set amount of water changes, and do all the necessary items for proper husbandry anyway, the value of enjoying the beauty of the coral far outweighs the cost to maintain it in my eyes.
jtesdall
Premium Member
I guess I don't see why not do it as a club activity??? We are a reef society after all. It seems this has benefits including a draw for new membership. If we don't want to buy and immediately frag, fine. Then we can buy, QT, grow out and frag. Whatever the right way to do it is. It might be worth posting on one of the clubs forums that have tried this to find out the pitfalls they have run into. We might find it is a huge success or that it really doesn't work well. Atticus, you may have already done this.
Maybe club funds shouldn't go into buying colonies, but maybe the members interested could go in. I guess that is the same as doing it outside the club but I think it would be good to be sponsored by GIRS as a benefit of being in the club.
Maybe someone should put a survey up on this topic.
Maybe club funds shouldn't go into buying colonies, but maybe the members interested could go in. I guess that is the same as doing it outside the club but I think it would be good to be sponsored by GIRS as a benefit of being in the club.
Maybe someone should put a survey up on this topic.
heartben
New member
i know im not a member (yet, i will be. im thinking when the year stars over. you guys are awesome.)
but.... i think its a really cool idea... i think it would be more realistic to do something like - everyone vote on 1 or 2 of each softie, lps and sps... find the best at growing each (if they agree to take care of it, and if they dont you have the right to hurt them... baha!) then maybe at the end of the year frag it up... within reason, otherwise maybe frag it a few times, and let those grow and then do it up.
i am new, so i dont know growth rates, but realisticly you can expect everyone to get a peice. im no master fragger, just saying.
so - what im suggesting is be more realistic and shoot for getting your frags later.
also, i think the idea of small groups buying and growing seems a little less risky for everyone else.
(maybe someone has said all those thing, but if they did... i concur)
but.... i think its a really cool idea... i think it would be more realistic to do something like - everyone vote on 1 or 2 of each softie, lps and sps... find the best at growing each (if they agree to take care of it, and if they dont you have the right to hurt them... baha!) then maybe at the end of the year frag it up... within reason, otherwise maybe frag it a few times, and let those grow and then do it up.
i am new, so i dont know growth rates, but realisticly you can expect everyone to get a peice. im no master fragger, just saying.
so - what im suggesting is be more realistic and shoot for getting your frags later.
also, i think the idea of small groups buying and growing seems a little less risky for everyone else.
(maybe someone has said all those thing, but if they did... i concur)
dascharisma
New member
I have played with the idea of a club frag tank for a long time. In the end I always come back to the points Jason is making above. Desirable frags don't come from nowhere, and growth rates won't allow everyone to have one of everything, and if everyone did benefit from this program, life would get boring because we would all have the same stuff that we fragged and tossed in the trash for lack of a customer.
In the end the system we have now works well. Most people stock their tanks with frags from club members that are purchased at less than retail value. A few club members shell out the money to buy new and exotic frags. It takes many months or even years before these grow large enough to really get a number of frags. By that time, the once exotic coral is common place and the money spenders are out bringing in something new. (red caps used to be a super hot item. How many of you have one now?)
If someone can explain to me how this club frag tank will grow corals faster (thereby allowing more frags) or grow corals cheaper (therby allowing more expensive corals to be purchased with the saved money), I would like to hear about it. In the end corals are going to take a certain amount of time to grow, and cost a certain amount of money.
Here is the way I see things as the club treasurer. Once we run out of corals to be donated, the club will have to purchase corals. Essentially at that point all you are doing is taking money out of the clubs bank account, and buying corals. Those corals don't grow any faster or more cheaply than corals you buy with your own money. As far as I can tell this plan will just end up with the club forking out the money to purchase corals. Club members will not see any other benefit beyond not having to pay for corals. The problem is, the club money comes from the members in the form of dues. Therefore the club members pay their dues, which goes to pay for the corals. How does this make sense?
My last point is this; One of the things that actually brings people together in this club is buying, selling, and trading corals. I have met countless members this way, and it has allowed me to build lasting friendships. When a "buddy" cuts you a good deal on a cool frag, it brings you closer together. When your name for a coral on the club waiting list is called, it doesn't strengthen the club, is just moves merchandise around.
Brad
xroads
New member
I did some searches on a few of the other large clubs accross the U.S. They are doing it successfully, why cant we. Of course everyone has disagreeing ideas. That is why we should sit down, talk it over, and present a few plans to the club & let the club make the decision. I didnt realzie that most people had tanks & bought corals so they could frag them to make money. I thought it was a hobby.
Also they dont have to be super rare or slow growing. Lots of people like cool zoas that can grow at a decent pace. There is lots of cool algae out there I havent seen in the club.
If someone doesnt want to participate, fine, dont. But it sounds like a good majority does.
Also they dont have to be super rare or slow growing. Lots of people like cool zoas that can grow at a decent pace. There is lots of cool algae out there I havent seen in the club.
If someone doesnt want to participate, fine, dont. But it sounds like a good majority does.
musty baby
New member
Explain?
Last edited:
xroads
New member
No not at all & I dont want to make this into a war. I just saw money listed a few times. I dont want to do this to get myself some cool corals. I want to do it to make our club grow & make it more fun and interesting.
I do understand that alot of people depend on selling frags in order to pay for their hobby. That is why we need to discuss this civily & come up with a plan to make everyone happy. (or the vast majority anyway)
I do understand that alot of people depend on selling frags in order to pay for their hobby. That is why we need to discuss this civily & come up with a plan to make everyone happy. (or the vast majority anyway)
bgreenlee
Member
There is a difference in greedy and doing this for the money. One of the core ideas of the group was to support coral propagation. However in the posts before this one I hear things like "supply and demand" and someone talking about throwing corals in the trash because they couldn't find a buyer. When I look at answers like that it is sure enough for the money.
I realize there are other reasons for some people, and those have been very valid, but for some in the group I feel it is more about the money. While I do like to sell a few things from time to time to help offset the cost, the hobby is about a lot more.
Personally my idea for the frag swap project is for a group to come together and buy a few rare corals that our local market is not already saturated in, break those up between a few tank and let them get established. Once that is done we woud frag them and sell them at the auctions along with all the other corals. We could take that money that was made, after giving the GIRS organization their share, and buy more corals to do the same with.
Like was said by myself earlier, I think that to try to go forward with this idea within GIRS is a mistake. The issue has become political and in my mind is dead as it pertains to a GIRS assosciation.
glaspie69
Premium Member
This is my main problem with a program like this, no one seems to be able to answer questions without getting into some kind of fight. I received the idea plans for this, and a reassurance that it was foolproof. I asked a few questions and got my head bit off for it, good start, just wanted to see what the future will hold.
dascharisma
New member
I was the one who mentioned throwing corals in the trash because no one wanted them. I was simply illustrtating that when corals become to widespread within the club, nobody is interested in taking any more of that particular coral. How many of us here have tossed something because it grew like crazy and nobody would take it off your hands? I can assure you that my opposition to this has nothing to do with money. I have never made a penny selling corals. I have not even broke even. I mention money only because people are making claims about this proposed club frag tank allowing members to suddenly acquire expensive corals that they couldn't in the past. I am trying (although apparently unsuccessfully) to point out that this tank will not accomplish that goal.
That being said, I keep reading that this proposed tank will allow people access to corals they otherwise couldn't acquire. When I read that, I assume that it is about saving money. Otherwise, just get online and place an order with any of the big frag shops and you will have all the rare frags you want. If it is about saving money, then I want someone to explain to me how this will save money.
Brad
bgreenlee
Member
I guess I did not see the question you asked. What I saw was a statement based on supply and demand curves and market price equilibrium. I understand fully that as the supply of a good in our area increases its price will fall. I realize that is not in the best interest of the people selling them.
As for the idea of a "club frag tank" I think it is a bad idea only for the fact that if we put all the corals in one tank and have a crash we are going to see a severe loss. However, if we buy corals. Quarantine them and treat them properly we can then break them up between a few people who are willing to grow them out. I will personally have plenty of space to do this and I don't want a thing in return for it except to see some growth in this hobby and to see it become more self sustainable.
If we get to a point where everyone has a bunch of corals we can't get rid of we can make an effort to trade them to other clubs, sell them at other local frag swaps, or do something really crazy and donate a bunch of corals to other clubs who might want to do this same project.
Atticus
New member
Jason I was not biting your head off I said "Bah you missed it" to note the frustration in myself not relaying my plan clearly to you. As GIRS president I was hoping you would see the value in this and note how easy this could be. I wanted you to be as excited as many of us are about this project.
As a response to Brad's great questions:
There will not be a single club tank. I agree that would be a horrible idea. Corals would be distributed to members for growout.
Saving money example. I cannot budget $200 for an acan so Billy, Jason, and Brad go in with me on it. Now we have paid $50 each. We split this acan 4 ways. We all now have acans that will growout and can be fragged again later. If each was fragged a year later we could now have 4 frags to sell at the club auction for $50 each thus covering the initial $200. Now there are 8 members with this popular coral and at next year's meeting they could be sold again figuring one frag each or given to other members of the club.
I only mentioned the money side as I know that is a hot topic. This demo can also be used to show how to make a club purchased coral work without draining our account.
In the end we have 8 people that have a coral in their tanks they have always wanted and were not able to afford alone. They have worked together and most likely spent time talking to eachother about their common coral. They are closer as a group. This once rare coral in our area is now being grown and shared in our area. While these 8 are busy the same would be done with other corals involving other club members. And with the frag hand offs happening at meetings, attendance will be up. Where is the down side?
jtesdall
Premium Member
I agree with Atticus and others, I don't see the downside if done right. I also agree with the arguments from Jason and Brad, although I don't think this has gotten heated or anyone's head was bitten off. Some good points have been brought up on both sides and I think these points, documented, will make this program work. Atticus has started the documentation. I think three or four of us should compare the negative points to what he has prepared and try to solve the issues in written form. When this has been done a few times then we should have a working plan. Some points I see to solve issues up front, in a list so they are easy to find:
1. Not an actual "Club physical tank" but within several members tanks for security against crash and initial cost.
2. Maybe the club shouldn't "Invest" funds in this program but just be the sponsor so the club gets the benefit of new membership and a good program.
3. Members that want to be involved can sign up, vote for a coral and then split the cost. Also vote for the three or four members that should "care" for the corals. Then when the time is right split the corals up. This will show an obvious cost benefit to members.
I am going to stop here because I know these are already in Atticus's document or something similar.
I know the fear is the political infighting. That is a very valid point after a few arguments just this week. I think this is a good opportunity to prove that we can work and play well together. I think we almost NEED to do this to prove we can do it. This is a good idea. I am about to put a vote up on this, but I think this is better done by Atticus or Billy since they are the driving forces. I also vote them as two of the members to grow the corals out. I however should not be chosen for this task for a year or so, so maybe next time around.
1. Not an actual "Club physical tank" but within several members tanks for security against crash and initial cost.
2. Maybe the club shouldn't "Invest" funds in this program but just be the sponsor so the club gets the benefit of new membership and a good program.
3. Members that want to be involved can sign up, vote for a coral and then split the cost. Also vote for the three or four members that should "care" for the corals. Then when the time is right split the corals up. This will show an obvious cost benefit to members.
I am going to stop here because I know these are already in Atticus's document or something similar.
I know the fear is the political infighting. That is a very valid point after a few arguments just this week. I think this is a good opportunity to prove that we can work and play well together. I think we almost NEED to do this to prove we can do it. This is a good idea. I am about to put a vote up on this, but I think this is better done by Atticus or Billy since they are the driving forces. I also vote them as two of the members to grow the corals out. I however should not be chosen for this task for a year or so, so maybe next time around.
Atticus
New member
I am not ready to grow corals out at this time. My tank is still in an unstable recovery phase. I appreciate the support and vote of confidence though and look forward to being able to participate soon. I just currently want to get this started to energize the club. This should be our busy and fun time of year.
Here is a link to Billy's proposal. It is very similar to what I have drawn up and it is on our personal website like I wanted to do also. So, please lets use our resources for this and switch this topic to that forum.
http://www.greateriowareefsociety.o...forumid/3/postid/404/scope/posts/Default.aspx
Here is a link to Billy's proposal. It is very similar to what I have drawn up and it is on our personal website like I wanted to do also. So, please lets use our resources for this and switch this topic to that forum.
http://www.greateriowareefsociety.o...forumid/3/postid/404/scope/posts/Default.aspx
