Delta_zeta
In Memoriam
Could someone please clarify the club's policy on LFS owners attending meetings STRICTLY on a hobbyist basis?
club policy?
- Thread starter Delta_zeta
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COreefer
Premium Member
The policy is very cut and dry...LFS owners cannot attend as hobbyists. For all intents and purposes they are not hobbyists, they are people who earn their living off of what we spend on the hobby. The RC rules are exactly the same...
We talk a lot about LFS' at the meetings...we talk about what WE have to pay for things (as an example). The LFS owner doesn't see the hobby through our eyes because they pay wholesale and many times less than what we do. To prevent the club from morphing into a forum for certain LFS's our policy from the begining has been, NO to having LFS owners attend unless invited. The only LFS's we would invite at this point would be those who sponsor our club. By invitation they are welcomed to attend and talk reefs, their business or whatever...I know many LFS owners may see themselves as hobyists and they may keep reef tanks at home or whatever. The reality is though, once someone decides to take that step toward making a living off of hobbyists, then they become retail interests and they are to remain seperate from our non profit, non agenda club.
Just to add...we are not going to become an implicit outlet for the advertising interests of fish stores. Just the sheer presence of a LFS owner is a form of advertising. It's not going to happen...sorry to beat a dead horse, but there has been more than a few times an LFS has or their surrogates have tried to use CSRC or SCMAS as an outlet to push their agenda. A major component to our mission is collectivism, free of any outside retail interests. That's why we have many sponsors, and not just one.
We talk a lot about LFS' at the meetings...we talk about what WE have to pay for things (as an example). The LFS owner doesn't see the hobby through our eyes because they pay wholesale and many times less than what we do. To prevent the club from morphing into a forum for certain LFS's our policy from the begining has been, NO to having LFS owners attend unless invited. The only LFS's we would invite at this point would be those who sponsor our club. By invitation they are welcomed to attend and talk reefs, their business or whatever...I know many LFS owners may see themselves as hobyists and they may keep reef tanks at home or whatever. The reality is though, once someone decides to take that step toward making a living off of hobbyists, then they become retail interests and they are to remain seperate from our non profit, non agenda club.
Just to add...we are not going to become an implicit outlet for the advertising interests of fish stores. Just the sheer presence of a LFS owner is a form of advertising. It's not going to happen...sorry to beat a dead horse, but there has been more than a few times an LFS has or their surrogates have tried to use CSRC or SCMAS as an outlet to push their agenda. A major component to our mission is collectivism, free of any outside retail interests. That's why we have many sponsors, and not just one.
murfman
New member
So why don't we invite ALL of our sponsors to a meeting maybe once a quarter?
I personally do not have an issue if they want to attend as a hobbiest, provided they know up front that talking business is off limits. There are some LFS owners that want to come and talk business, that is fine, provided they have been invited to give the club a presentation.
To play devils advocate here now, lets say we have an individual/s who is/are currently in our club and attend the meetings on a regular basis. They decide to go into some form of aquarium retail business, whether its on the side or their primary means of income. Does that mean they are not longer welcome as a club member?
I personally do not have an issue if they want to attend as a hobbiest, provided they know up front that talking business is off limits. There are some LFS owners that want to come and talk business, that is fine, provided they have been invited to give the club a presentation.
To play devils advocate here now, lets say we have an individual/s who is/are currently in our club and attend the meetings on a regular basis. They decide to go into some form of aquarium retail business, whether its on the side or their primary means of income. Does that mean they are not longer welcome as a club member?
Delta_zeta
In Memoriam
I can understand your reasoning for this but I almost find this as a potential discouragement for LFS's to support our club if they're not even welcome as hobbyists. I'm sure there are very few store owners that would say they "know it all" and there is much to be learned from our club, or any club for that matter. I know many clubs that allow LFS owners to attend club meetings as long as there is absolutely NO business discussion and they use it as an outlet only to discuss the hobby and perspectives and experiences. I guess I was just sorely discouraged after talking to several LFS owners who told they were outright told they aren't welcome at any of our functions, regardless of circumstances...yet many of them still support our LRC and even extend discounts to members. I understand that they may get their reef related items, even for their own tanks, at a wholesale price when we pay retail, but I have to disagree that they aren't able to see the hobby the same way we do. Isn't the club's purpose to extend knowledge to others and promote growth in all areas of reef keeping, to everyone?
COreefer
Premium Member
I think you are bringing up a grey area when it comes to someone who supplements their income with some sort of a side business...if they have a storefront, they are welcomed by invite only. We have not established a time frame for invites, but I would figure that if an LFS owner is cvoming to a meeting, it would have to be on an invite basis, and they had better have something to put up for a raffle. That's speaking to the devil's advocate piece Murf.
The answer on the LFS's attending as hobbyists is a clear no. They will be welcomed on an invie basis if they are a club sponsor. There just isn't anyway to disminate someone's intentions. What would the reprocussions be if an LFS owner attended every meeting as a hobbyist and while we are discussing deals around town (as we always do) they mention they have what someone is looking for? What if they do it on the side? No, there is no way to police thought or discourse so the only route is to prohibit them from attending unless they are formally invited. The shear presence of an LFS owner will cause people to not talk about LFS business practices(you really think an LFS owner is going to sit idely while we discuss retail issues around town?)...to much can go wrong to open the club up to a very few people and Murf you know it has been like this since day one.
COreefer
Premium Member
First of all, you haven't been around long enough to have seen some of the LFS's try to push their agenda upon the club. It has happened many times including right here on RC. Some have felt entitled to use our LRC as an outlet for advertisment.
Second, anyone who told you they have been told they aren't welcomed, is either uninformed or they are flat out lying to you. In July, Todd from Neptune's Realm (who has twice now donated items to raffle) attended a meeting (and like I said, they had better be bringing a raffle item too). The door is always open for LFS owners to attend as LFS owners, because that's what they are...they are not hobbyists. Do you think LFS owners would have been supportive of Todd's presentation, knowing that he is cutting business from them?? (Todd showed us how to save big $$$ on supplements) Let's be for real here...the LFS's can play this role all they want that they are hobbyists, but the reality is, with each presentation that saves us money, with every frag swap, with every discussion regarding LFS's, they take a business hit. Nope, the club has functioned fine without retailers attending...if they were to begin to attend it would be a disaster. Maintaining tanks for the retail world vs our home displays is night and day and I can guarantee you no LFS owner is going to do the "right thing" when it comes down to earning $$$$ or giving someone sound advice.
The fish business in this town is cuthroat...don't let them fool you with the, "oh we are hobbyists" role. I also have my suspicions on who is saying these things...in the coming weeks, I will be talking to ALL of our sponsors and I will be working out a schedule for them to attend to talk reefs and their business. I will also discuss this matter with ALL of them.
racer69
New member
I have to agree with Eric on this one. Our meetings do not need to be influenced by LFS's. I would have been very uncomfortable talking about the homemade two part recipe with any one of the local LFS owners being present. I have actually been chastised by a certain lfs owner for putting unknown chemicals into my tank. This same owner told me that unless you are buying a commercial additive, you will destroy your tank. Now this is only one example and only my experience, but you do get the point.
I do believe the LFS owners understand this, and they also understand that we still respect their business and will continue to shop there. There is also nothing in the by laws of RC that I know of that prohibits owners from participating in the clubs forum as long as they aren't trying to sell on the forum. (I may be wrong on this..) As long as I am a member of this club, and also one of the four people who helped get SCMAS started separately from RMRC I will support this policy. With that being said, I have very good relationships with most of the owners in Pueblo, Colorado Springs, and Denver. I do hope that if any one of them reads these comments, and has any reservations about what I am saying, they would talk to me about it personally the next time I visit their store. I do hope this conversation end here.
I do believe the LFS owners understand this, and they also understand that we still respect their business and will continue to shop there. There is also nothing in the by laws of RC that I know of that prohibits owners from participating in the clubs forum as long as they aren't trying to sell on the forum. (I may be wrong on this..) As long as I am a member of this club, and also one of the four people who helped get SCMAS started separately from RMRC I will support this policy. With that being said, I have very good relationships with most of the owners in Pueblo, Colorado Springs, and Denver. I do hope that if any one of them reads these comments, and has any reservations about what I am saying, they would talk to me about it personally the next time I visit their store. I do hope this conversation end here.
calvin415
New member
I know you wanted the last word Todd, but I'm just going to echo what you said so everyone knows my position on this as well. I've talked at great lengths with Eric L about this as well and I'm going to ditto what Todd said... The RC policy is very black and white at keeping everything seperate and it's purely preventative. We should also adapt this same idea to be proactive rather than reactive to try to keep things fair and impartial to any one store over another.
Delta_zeta
In Memoriam
I'm not trying to start any fires w/ my question and I definitely understand that I haven't been around as long as some of you so I realize I don't know the experiences some of you have had personally but I've seen many many LRCs function very efficiently with LFS. I was just hoping for clarification more than anything, though I guess I'm somewhat discouraged to hear that a club would encourage allowing people to bash businesses at a club meeting event simply because they don't agree with how someone chooses to run their own business. How would that look to a newbie to the club to come in and hear club members talking poorly of of a business that they personally may have had nothing but good experiences with? How does that reflect on the club to an individual?
COreefer
Premium Member
I don't know how you conclude that any LFS gets "bashed" at a meeting. If people have an experience they want to share for good or for bad they share it...
Just to add, you say you are not trying to "start any fires", and say you just want "clarification", but then you continue to push this agenda with hyperbolic statements like "bashing businesses at meetings". My suggestion is you experience the community for a while, before drawing any conclusions. The entire thread has gone from how we don't allow retailers to attend as hobbyists, to how we "bash" them...I'm just perplexed.
Also for the record to our sponsors if you read this...I cannot think of one negative comment that has been made about your store at a meeting. Everyone is appreciative of your contributions to the club, and we reciprocate that by encouraging our members to give you the first option.
Delta_zeta
In Memoriam
I never said that the club just bashes LFS. I was really impressed at the meeting. I learned something I didn't know and I think that's the important part about what a club should do. But, when a half hour discussion went on about a business' "ethics" at the meeting, it was a bit discouraging for myself. My intention WAS to clarify, but it got turned into a discussion before I added my thoughts and I just don't think a club's intent should be to discuss at the meeting how they feel a business should be run or how they don't agree with its practices, at the meeting, since you brought up the fact that people would be uncomfortable discussing this at the meetings. I am all for discussing good or bad experiences though. And please don't get me wrong, thusfar, I have the utmost respect for everyone I've met, and no one has given me reason to think otherwise. I believe I have a lot to learn from many members of the club and I have a lot to give also. And you're definitely right, I haven't been in the LRC long, but I have been visiting the stores for several months now and have been in the hobby itself for 4 yrs (not long by any stretch of the imagination but long enough to have learned how to make educated decisions).
So taking this back to the original intent of the tread, I don't expect anyone to agree with or change anything for that matter, but the reason I asked is because *several* people told me that they had the topic approached rather brashly to them that they simply were not welcome to club meetings unless invited period and I had a hard time believing it which is why I asked.
So taking this back to the original intent of the tread, I don't expect anyone to agree with or change anything for that matter, but the reason I asked is because *several* people told me that they had the topic approached rather brashly to them that they simply were not welcome to club meetings unless invited period and I had a hard time believing it which is why I asked.
COreefer
Premium Member
Only a few participated in a discussion about that business and it was because a fly by night poster posted the information on RC. At the meeting I felt the discussion revolved more around why we shouldn't allow that stuff to go on, on RC. Go back through some of the archives on this site, and the RMRC site, you will find very harsh critisism of some stores because some people have the perecption they were treated unfairly. It has been going on for a long time and there is no way to police speech.
Mustang394
Premium Member
I not sure my comment in this thread will be welcome being a LFS owner.
But why would you want to police speach? It is everyone in this countrys right to express their opinion. I would think you would encourage members to talk about their experiences both good and bad. Then decide for yourself if what was said has any merit.
As club why wouldn't you share both your good and bad? Having belonged to many clubs in the past I know how ugly those discussion can get but that's why you have people like Eric to keep things in check.
But why would you want to police speach? It is everyone in this countrys right to express their opinion. I would think you would encourage members to talk about their experiences both good and bad. Then decide for yourself if what was said has any merit.
As club why wouldn't you share both your good and bad? Having belonged to many clubs in the past I know how ugly those discussion can get but that's why you have people like Eric to keep things in check.
COreefer
Premium Member
No one wants to police speech...for sure this thread has morphed into something other than the initial post. I really don't know what the purpose or the points being made are anymore. A brief recap, we "bash"" the fish stores at meetings, critisism should be encouraged, it should be discouraged...I don't know what you guys want.
This is precisely why we have the black and white policy we do, so that it eliminates all of this back and forth and the ambiguity of such and such said this or such and such said that without any names given. The foundation for that arguement was built upon quick sand.
Like I said, in the coming weeks I will be in touch with all of our sponsors and other LFS's to get their feelings on the record. Keith, I would hope you wouldn't pull your sponsorship because we don't allow LFS owners to attend as "hobbyists".
This is precisely why we have the black and white policy we do, so that it eliminates all of this back and forth and the ambiguity of such and such said this or such and such said that without any names given. The foundation for that arguement was built upon quick sand.
Like I said, in the coming weeks I will be in touch with all of our sponsors and other LFS's to get their feelings on the record. Keith, I would hope you wouldn't pull your sponsorship because we don't allow LFS owners to attend as "hobbyists".
reefkoi
Premium Member
So as long as they dont have a LFS store front they are welcome to the meeting? They can do work to gain money from LFS or sell products to hobbiests as long as its not a "store front" Just want to clarify that one, I have some friends invited, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers. Also Eric, you say they can be invited, is this by you or the meeting host? And if by the Host what did you say they need to do, bring a raffle item? I think thats a great idea, a couple items really right? Afterall we support them they should support us!
Thanks, Chris
Oh yeah and your comment about the club not wanting to "police speech" is right on the money, afterall it would be unconstitutional and pretty much destory the whole point of Reef Central and the Internet right! :lol:
Thanks, Chris
Oh yeah and your comment about the club not wanting to "police speech" is right on the money, afterall it would be unconstitutional and pretty much destory the whole point of Reef Central and the Internet right! :lol:
COreefer
Premium Member
Please, save your comments for now until I have had a chance to speak with our sponsors, and club officials. This thread has morphed into something absolutly different than its original intent. Everyone has an opinion on this (especially those with retail interests) but we have had a policy in place for almost 4 years. We will revisit the policy, but this thread is not the place to do it.
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