Coil Denitrator

lol. rsman, you busted me with one of my own pet peeves. touche. I subscribed to this thread years ago. Was bumping because phil hadn't gotten any replies in two weeks. I hesitate to respond to posts when I don't have personal experience (and I don't in this area). Was hoping someone who had actually ran them would chime in. I can relate to being busy...on the road in FL for two months.....But I will take your advice and ask a couple questions for you or anyone else with experience.

i can apreciate that so here is the response to phil's post

OK, I think I'm going to jump on the bandwagon and build one of these. I've got a 150g reef and a 30g sump with a small fuge w/macro in it. Although my nitrates are down now, they have sometimes loitered at 10 ppm or slightly above.
sounds good coil denitrators can go nice into a fuge if you can do it carefully, the increased CO2 is great for growing macro's, the low ammonia/nitrite/nitrate however can be bad, so mix incoming water in a way that nothing is splashed and you get a good flow of both.


I'm concerned about the potential for clogs in the .17" ID tubing so I'd like to go with some 1/4" ID drip irrigation tubing instead. If I've worked out the ratios correctly I should use roughly 86' of the 1/4" ID tubing instead of 50' of the .17" ID tubing, and I could expect about twice the drip rate from this.
as long as you dont use ANY connectors to extend the length and keep it DARK the potential for clogs is identical, the 86' is kinda wrong ish, the problem is that the length goes up faster than the diameter goes out, 100 ~ 120 is better 80 wont kill nothing, but itll have a reduced max output a tank that loiters at 10ppm this isnt a problem. a larger tank or higher bioload would need more coils at 80' or extended coils

Finally, I'm thinking about using a short 5" or 6" diameter PVC pipe instead of a taller 3" or 4" one, and I've got a bag of Siporax that I plan to put inside.
whatever its REALLY UN IMPORTANT as to how big it is or whats in it, it just needs some surface area that water is not moving fast across


Does all this sound OK, or should I just use the classic icemaker approach and not worry about clogs? If I go with the dripline, should I have a single coil or go for a double. Same question if I stay with the 0.17" approach--should I go with 1, 2 or even 3 of the 50' coils?
try 1 now, build a bigger better one IF you feel you need to

Many thanks for any and all comments,
sorry for the delay
Phil



Early on when this thread started you said you were of the opinion that 50' was the minimum length and 75' was better. More recently you've said 50' is recommended. I'm assuming we're talking about the same .17ID tubing discussed earlier. Has experience taught you that the longer length isn't really required?
Or are you doing a tradeoff (i.e. shorter length for slower flow)?

this is actually a reflection of many things, when i changed my recomendation i started doing a document that i NEED to complete SOON, in which i actually ran the numbers myself and just decided its better to recomend 50' the next reason it seems to be that no one is getting it, the other side is that it depends on how its hooked up, gravity feed gets shorter coils than pumped the trade off is as noted shorter length == slower flow. this is from both looking for hours and hours thru complex documents and experimenting to see what happens. i run 7 of these


How'd your plan to string four DCs together feeding into a fifth chamber work out? Did you get the buffering affect you anticipated out of the fifth chamber? im not sure to what your refering to here ???

I've got more, but I'll stop there. Don't have a specific tank I'm going to put one on....but since they're cheap and easy to make, I might make a few while I'm away from home for grins. please post though, im making notes as i go for things i shud clear up in that document.
 
im not sure to what your refering to here ???
Click to expand...

Was talking about this you mentioned back in sept 03...

4 columns of the cheaper 3"OD tubs the full 6' high, I am spirling the coil tubing down the chamber then filling the chamber with bio balls, I still have to work out a kink in the top of the unit but water will travel down the coil to the bottom of the columns then travil up the columns and then down a 5th column I hope to fill with argonite (the only removeable top portion) ive also added a hook up for an air pump to pump into the bottom of the argonite column depending on what ph i get out of the unit w/o the airpump I figure ill get some alk buffering out of it ca being only a bonus to keep water quality up as its for fish breeding.
 
whassup rs,
can you please post the cycling technique here instead of pm-ing or e-mailing me. This way you don't have to write it more than once and everyone can see it for themselves.
"THANKS"

If you've already sent it, don't worry about it. "I'll link it here for everyones information."
 
I'm interested in this too. I just hooked up my coil last night. I used 50' of 1/4" tubing and bioballs inside a ~20" tall piece of 4" PVC and set the drip rate to ~10/minute.

Should I keep the drip rate at 10 until the CD has completely cycled, then increase it slightly every few days? What is the maximum flow rate I should reach (as high as possible while maintaining 0 nitrIte out of the CD)?

Also on page 2 Spring1 said he was getting nitrIte=5 from the CD the day after it was turned on? I would think it would take several days to colonize enough bacteria so that the parameters of the CD output would be different from the tank. I've read you get nitrIte when the aerobic bacteria are set up, but just enough anaerobic bacteria are present to convert nitrAte back to nitrIte (and not enough to continue nitrIte to nitrogen gas). If this happened after one day though, maybe it occurs when just enough aerobic bacteria are present to convert ammonia to nitrIte and that's it, back into the tank...?

Well I'll test trItes and trAtes daily and post how it goes if anyone is still watching this thread. Thanks, Jason.
 
whassup bs,
post it kid, I'm still watching so let me know...."I'm still cycling mine, so we can share some info.
 
Well I ran some tests after 24hrs. The nitrIte/nitrAte from the CD were 1/15 and in the tank, 0/15. I can't believe after one day there is activity through the CD! Anyway, I'm still at ~10 drops/min and decided to run the output of the CD to a bucket rather than back to the tank so I don't introduce any nitrIte into the system. I bumped up my dosing pump slightly to make up for the lost water and will keep an eye on SG.

So I'm expecting the nitrIte from the CD to continue to rise for a week or two, then both the nitrIte and nitrAte from the CD to slowly fall back to zero in another couple of weeks. Then I'll reroute the output to the tank and slowly increase the flow rate. Is this how the cycling process works on these? How is yours doing?
 
Been tagging along for awhile. I have resurrected a 125 that had nitrate literally off the scale..200 or better. Through major water changes etc , it has been in the 5-10 range for the past 2 months. Could a product like matrix be used as the media rather than bioballs. Would seem the surface area would be substantially increased.
 
I don't see why not. The only reason to fill the unit with any type of media is to increase surface area for anaerobic bacteria. I just used bioballs because I had a bag full of them.
 
ok so L O N G post time :D

if i loose anyone speak up.

can you please post the cycling technique here instead of pm-ing or e-mailing me. i cant recall but I THINK that i emailed or PM'd them but just in case there below in the post. :D


This way you don't have to write it more than once and everyone can see it for themselves.
"THANKS" ooh yea thats gona happen :D

so here is a basic rundown
<ul>
<li>plug in coil denitrator
<li>then for the first few days you may optionally run it full open or fill it and stop it, either of these will speed up the cycleing process a little neither is required.
<li>set the unit up for a slow slow rate like 20 drops in 60 seconds
</ul>
then after the first 3 to 5 days and every 3 or 5 or so days until the unit is cycled do the following
<ul>
<li>test the nitrItes and nitrAtes
<li>if nitrItes are above 1ppm then speed the unit up a LITTLE
<li>if nitrAtes are above 1ppm then slow the unit down a LITTLE
<li>and if you are stuck with both then follow the rule for nitrItes
</ul>
more or less the unit is cycled when its running full open and has 0 nitrItes AND 0 nitrAtes in the ouput.

bsackamano:
I'm interested in this too. I just hooked up my coil last night. I used 50' of 1/4" tubing and bioballs inside a ~20" tall piece of 4" PVC and set the drip rate to ~10/minute.
ok so did you use 1/4"ID or .170" ID if you used the 1/4" ID then my first recomendation is while its still new, tear it down and put 20' or 30' more on the coil, if however thats 1/4" OD or .170"ID then SWEET!!!, if you did use 1/4"ID and dont feel like tearing it apart, itll work cycling will be harder in that you will have to put more effort into getting the right flow rate, which will be reduced, but stable once adjusted.


Should I keep the drip rate at 10 until the CD has completely cycled, NO you must change this flow rate as the unit cycles, the thing to get right is the how much, for that you must use your nitrite test kit. at first it might be 2 weeks before the first change but you should test instead of guess.

then increase it slightly every few days?
thats the goal

What is the maximum flow rate I should reach (as high as possible while maintaining 0 nitrIte out of the CD)? for that you will have to give more info. first which ID did you use, then how are you getting water into / out of the unit and at least a course statement to bio load and water volume. at the least you should be able to get more than 24gpd

Also on page 2 Spring1 said he was getting nitrIte=5 from the CD the day after it was turned on? I would think it would take several days to colonize enough bacteria so that the parameters of the CD output would be different from the tank. thats totally normal.

I've read you get nitrIte when the aerobic bacteria are set up, but just enough anaerobic bacteria are present to convert nitrAte back to nitrIte (and not enough to continue nitrIte to nitrogen gas). that can be a cause.

If this happened after one day though, maybe it occurs when just enough aerobic bacteria are present to convert ammonia to nitrIte and that's it, back into the tank...? thats generally the issue, its also because that aerobic bacteria is O2 limited and each step takes a lot of O2.

Well I'll test trItes and trAtes daily and post how it goes if anyone is still watching this thread. Thanks, Jason.
ok, see above.

benray4fun:
I'm still cycling mine, so we can share some info. you are ?? when did you set it up??

bsackamano:
Well I ran some tests after 24hrs. The nitrIte/nitrAte from the CD were 1/15 and in the tank, 0/15. I can't believe after one day there is activity through the CD! Anyway, I'm still at ~10 drops/min and decided to run the output of the CD to a bucket rather than back to the tank so I don't introduce any nitrIte into the system. I bumped up my dosing pump slightly to make up for the lost water and will keep an eye on SG. the nitrIte will not effect the tank, so feel free to dump them back into the tank. especially at 10 drops / min, the first few days you cant use the adjustments in the list above, the unit is just too new.

So I'm expecting the nitrIte from the CD to continue to rise for a week or two, then both the nitrIte and nitrAte from the CD to slowly fall back to zero in another couple of weeks. Then I'll reroute the output to the tank and slowly increase the flow rate. Is this how the cycling process works on these? How is yours doing? see above you dont want the unit producing high nitrItes as itll effect the unit. 1ppm is ok, and can be handled by both the unit and the newest tanks. this cycling period is where people give up on them, they require frequent adjusting but IF you have cycled it correctly and adjusted it correctly then once its cycled your done, you just need to check that water is coming out every now and then.


fuzzybubbles:
Been tagging along for awhile. I have resurrected a 125 that had nitrate literally off the scale..200 or better. Through major water changes etc , it has been in the 5-10 range for the past 2 months. Could a product like matrix be used as the media rather than bioballs. Would seem the surface area would be substantially increased. even the smallest denitrator is not limited by surface area in the reactor chamber, so using a higher bio material is ok, use what you have first, then use whats cheap. if you want to process more water you need either more coils, or larger diameter AND longer coils.

bsackamano:
I don't see why not. The only reason to fill the unit with any type of media is to increase surface area for anaerobic bacteria. I just used bioballs because I had a bag full of them. not really to increase but to provide a better area, the bacteria you want growing there do better in a low flow area, but the water must come in contact with the surface. while the bacteria in the coil do better in a high flow area. if you had some way of ensuring that the water had availability to the sides you could just use an empty chamber, but what would happen is that the water would go down the center of the chamber and not come into contact with the surface, and that wouldnt work.


so how much did i confuse it for everyone. let me know :D
 
Thanks for the clarifications rsman. I'm using 0.25OD or 0.17ID (50ft) so I think I'm set. I'll just keep an eye on the nitrI/Ates and adjust the flow accordingly.

As far as the max flow rate goes, here are some more details. I've got about 80gal of total water, 5" DSB in tank and fuge, macro in fuge growing pretty well, good skimmer (EV-180), and very light bioload (2 clowns), but maintain 10-50 nitrate depending on the test kit and time since last WC. I'm not sure where it's coming from. My topoff is nitrate free, 0 TDS, I only feed once a week, I have no bioballs in the sump, no mechanical filtration anywhere, etc. Anyway, I'm thinking with all of this and the coil I'll be set!

The CD is 4" PVC, about 20" tall with 50ft of 0.17ID tubing and about 50 bioballs. I have a 200gph powerhead feeding it from my skimmer output, it is dumping back into the skimmer input (actually to bucket right now), and the flow is controlled with a valve on the output. With the valve fully open I get a steady stream, probably 100gph or less.
 
the .170 is exactly what you want for 50'

whatever rate you get out of that steady stream when fully opened is what you should get out of the max flow rate, to put that into a little perspective once its working whatever nitrate goes into the coil gets consumed so with that small of a bio load the next problem will be PO4 you *MIGHT* end up having to dial the coil back a bit so that your algae grows. but dont worry about doing that for at least a few months, if ever.
 
benray-

How is your coil doing? After 4 weeks, I'm at about 15 drops/min with NI~1 and NA~80, both well above tank values. I'm beginning to wonder if my intake connection is leaking O2 rich water into the top of the unit and hosing everything. In another 4 weeks if it hasn't cycled, I'm going to cut the top off and redesign the connections.
 
You said to start at 20 drops/min. I actually hooked it up before that post so I started at 10 based on a previous post in this thread.

I got up to about 30 but NI went to 0 and NA was still way up, so I started slowing it back down. I've been adjusting in every few days, keeping the flow rate as low as possible (to handle the NA) while keeping NI between 0.5-1.0.
 
Hi,
I'm running mine full blast and it works great....0 nitrites and 0 nitrates, my tank also is at 0. I also started feeding less... about every 3 days and went open top to let the surface breath, so maybe everything I did had a little to do with my water parameters getting better, but for sure the coil is working great!
 
WHAT?!!

Man, I SUCK! I leaked checked everything before assembly so I'm not sure what is going on. I'm going to increase the flow and see what happens. Do you remember your approximate flow rate schedule during cycling? Thanks, J.
 
RSMAN

I have anew 75 setup with about 140 gallons total. SSB in display, rubble in above tank fuge with cheato, no substrate in sump. Seeded that tank with a few pounds of live sand and LR. The rest is base rock from reeferocks. In any case 0 trates and 0 amonia... tank has cycled and has a few snails, a hermit and 2 damsels and a pepermint shrimp. Starting to get algea and coraline is starting to show sines of appearing. The pods abound and I have started skimming this week. Tank is a little over a month old.

Is it time to get a coil going or should I wait. Is this an alternative to a DSB? I was going to DSB in a remote 20 gallon, but don't have the room and would rather use the coil if it will do the same for me...

Bean
 
I am trying to cycle one of these thing and so far its not working for me!! I have 75' of .17 ID coil and have been hovering around 10 drop/minute.
my tank condition is NitrAte 80/ NitrIte 0ppm
out of the reactor its NitrAte 100/ Nitrite 2ppm
is it too slow?? should I speed it up?? why isn't the Nitrate effected at all?
 
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