Collecting Seahorses
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TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
Very neat. For the first time ever, I'm planning on going collecting in the next couple weeks in FL, and if all works out, in NY in September. (the later, depending how my funds hold up.)
Did you look anyplace special for the seahorses? Were you snorkeling, scuba diving, or just collecting what you could wade to?
Did you look anyplace special for the seahorses? Were you snorkeling, scuba diving, or just collecting what you could wade to?
Seagrass beds in calm water, usually just inside passes and inlets, seem most productive for seahorses, baby trunkfish, spiny boxfish, and similar slow swimmers. If the weeds are not too thick, snorkeling is fine, and by far the most fun. Under docks, around encrusted pilings is an excellent place to find seahorses and other fish. Seahorses are easily collected by hand. A collecting net is needed for other fish. A small seine net is best in heavy weeds.
In Florida you must have a non-resident SW fishing license (about $15 for a week) and follow their ornamental fish collecting regulations. You can get info and licenses on line. NY and NJ do not have any such requirements. Tropical fish up here are carried in on the Gulf Stream, and do fine in the summer and early fall warm inshore waters. All of them die when water temps drop into the 50's F in November. Spotfin Butterfly Fish are abundant up here in summer, and beachcoming in November will somtimes reveal dozens of these bright yellow and white beauties, dead on the sand.
Transporting live fish long distances is far more difficult than catching them. You really need to know exactly what you are doing , and have all the equipment needed for keeping fish alive while traveling ready and in place before you collect your first fish.
In Florida you must have a non-resident SW fishing license (about $15 for a week) and follow their ornamental fish collecting regulations. You can get info and licenses on line. NY and NJ do not have any such requirements. Tropical fish up here are carried in on the Gulf Stream, and do fine in the summer and early fall warm inshore waters. All of them die when water temps drop into the 50's F in November. Spotfin Butterfly Fish are abundant up here in summer, and beachcoming in November will somtimes reveal dozens of these bright yellow and white beauties, dead on the sand.
Transporting live fish long distances is far more difficult than catching them. You really need to know exactly what you are doing , and have all the equipment needed for keeping fish alive while traveling ready and in place before you collect your first fish.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
Thanks for the tips! The trip to NY is planned specifically because I have a friend there that catches all these wonderful tropical fish. Which is just crazy, but cool none-the-less. ANd I want to get me some northern erectus. They are so lovely!
I plan on fedexing them home the day I fly home. I've shipped fish before, as are the two people that are going as well. So I think we'll be good there. Collecting though. I don't know... but its going to be fun to try!!
Do you have any photos of your catch? I'd love to see them.
I plan on fedexing them home the day I fly home. I've shipped fish before, as are the two people that are going as well. So I think we'll be good there. Collecting though. I don't know... but its going to be fun to try!!
Do you have any photos of your catch? I'd love to see them.
I am not sure if these were your seahorses but I went to Pet Shanty, LFS, and they had 7 or 8 seahorses in the tank. And the owner told me exact samething that you just said, collected on NJ shore and they are not illegal because they will die once water temp hit low.
Anyway, they look really lovely. I wish I can swim really better so I could go out and have some fun. Maybe I can collect them as well but I doubt I'll do that. It's probably impossible to wean them over to prepared food and I don't think I can feed them live food for long time.
Anyway, they look really lovely. I wish I can swim really better so I could go out and have some fun. Maybe I can collect them as well but I doubt I'll do that. It's probably impossible to wean them over to prepared food and I don't think I can feed them live food for long time.
They can easily be weaned over to frozen mysis, brine shrimp, and frozen grass shrimp. Start with a mix of live and frozen, and they quickly learn, within a couple of days. They are at least as adaptable as any captive bred seahorse, and likely healthier: never crowded or stressed, and 2 hours from ocean to LFS. They also had to grow up in harsh competitive circumstances, so some level of natural selection is involved. Notice how active they are, how diligently they search every nook and cranny for food.
The superiority of captive bred specimens is not true when contrasted with wild-caught seahorses that have not undergone many days of sitting in collector's and wholesaler's tanks, crowded and long transportation trauma, etc. These are intrastate fish, so no federal laws are involved, and they will die in a few months if left in the ocean, no matter what.
BTW, I don't make any money from this. I collect for the joys of spending hours in those wild, wonderful habitats. What I get from LFS's barely covers gas money.
The superiority of captive bred specimens is not true when contrasted with wild-caught seahorses that have not undergone many days of sitting in collector's and wholesaler's tanks, crowded and long transportation trauma, etc. These are intrastate fish, so no federal laws are involved, and they will die in a few months if left in the ocean, no matter what.
BTW, I don't make any money from this. I collect for the joys of spending hours in those wild, wonderful habitats. What I get from LFS's barely covers gas money.
DanU
New member
I don't believe it is entirely accurate that seahorses will die in northern waters when the temperatures drop. Erectus can be found as far north as Nova Scotia. I have talked with New England lobstermen that find them on their lines or traps. The depths were deep and water temps pretty low. There is also a study that was done in the Chesapeake Bay where they found that H. erectus there go into what appeared a dormant type state during the winter.
Dan
Dan
Some do survive the winter, but most do not, and the vast numbers of small juveniles that appear each summer in the mid-Atlantic states have been documented many times moving inshore as juveniles, on the surface in weedy lenses of Gulf Stream water. Parts of Chesapeake Bay may be the northern limit for small overwintering populations, but studies I've seen place it further south, like Albemarle sound. Even there, the Gulf Stream provides the bulk of the population.
In any case, the evidence for self-sustaining overwintering populations in temperate latitudes is virtually non-existent. Seahorse population density studies that I've participated in show a very strong correlation between population density and proximity to inlets. The few fish that survive the winter cannot account for the numbers that reappear each summer, especially since the populations seem to spread outward into the bay from the inlet areas.
We have had some interesting phenomena near nuclear power plants, where warm water used to cool reactors can maintain semi-tropical conditions throughout the winter in the small areas near the cooling water outfalls. A few years ago a brief maintenance shutdown of a nuclear power reactor in early February resulted in a massive fish kill in NJ's Barnegat Bay, affecting great numbers of warm water fish, including triggerfish, seahorses, angelfish, groupers, and even a couple of sea turtles, all of which had established a small community in the square mile or so of water that the nuclear plant's effluent kept above 70F degrees all winter. The water plummeted to the high 30s when the reactors shut down, and everything died within a few hours. The second time this happened, the plant agreed to shut down for maintenance only in summer.
In any case, the evidence for self-sustaining overwintering populations in temperate latitudes is virtually non-existent. Seahorse population density studies that I've participated in show a very strong correlation between population density and proximity to inlets. The few fish that survive the winter cannot account for the numbers that reappear each summer, especially since the populations seem to spread outward into the bay from the inlet areas.
We have had some interesting phenomena near nuclear power plants, where warm water used to cool reactors can maintain semi-tropical conditions throughout the winter in the small areas near the cooling water outfalls. A few years ago a brief maintenance shutdown of a nuclear power reactor in early February resulted in a massive fish kill in NJ's Barnegat Bay, affecting great numbers of warm water fish, including triggerfish, seahorses, angelfish, groupers, and even a couple of sea turtles, all of which had established a small community in the square mile or so of water that the nuclear plant's effluent kept above 70F degrees all winter. The water plummeted to the high 30s when the reactors shut down, and everything died within a few hours. The second time this happened, the plant agreed to shut down for maintenance only in summer.
DanU
New member
My only arguement is that in talking with some of the lobstermen in New England, they find seahorses attached to lines and pots that are 30 to 50 feet deep. If this only happened in late summer, I would agree but when it happens in late spring to early summer, that is too much of a temperature change for the seahorses.
The folks at Woods Hole collect seahorses reliably at a spot near Gooseberry Neck. They can be readily found in this area. Does this mean that the horses that caught the Gulf Stream north know to go here? If it was just a couple and sporadic, I would think so, but it appears that this is a resident population.
It would make sense if the power plant shutdown there was a big fish kill. Too much of a temperature change too quickly will do them in.
I could be wrong, but the natives in New England would certainly argue the point.
Dan
The folks at Woods Hole collect seahorses reliably at a spot near Gooseberry Neck. They can be readily found in this area. Does this mean that the horses that caught the Gulf Stream north know to go here? If it was just a couple and sporadic, I would think so, but it appears that this is a resident population.
It would make sense if the power plant shutdown there was a big fish kill. Too much of a temperature change too quickly will do them in.
I could be wrong, but the natives in New England would certainly argue the point.
Dan
Samala
New member
I was almost positive I had a paper somewhere documentating popuation genetics among east coast H. erectus. Like many other groups of animals, there were distinct groups within the overall US population, suggesting that there are distinct breeding pools.. in this case related to geography. (You can also see this in horseshoe crabs actually..) I'll have to go looking for that paper.
I would be more than shocked if all H. erectus die during winter in the north. I have myself pulled nets closely offshore and within bays in the late late fall and early spring and found myself looking at H. erectus. Juvies and young of the year in the summer only though, as you might expect for such a seasonal area.
Though.. I cant recall my grandfather reporting juvies from crab pots in central FL outside of summer either.
Billsreef would likely be a good person to ask.
>Sarah
I would be more than shocked if all H. erectus die during winter in the north. I have myself pulled nets closely offshore and within bays in the late late fall and early spring and found myself looking at H. erectus. Juvies and young of the year in the summer only though, as you might expect for such a seasonal area.
Though.. I cant recall my grandfather reporting juvies from crab pots in central FL outside of summer either.
Billsreef would likely be a good person to ask.
>Sarah
I'm very interested in the Gooseberry Neck data, especially the times of year sample trawls were done, numbers of animals collected, etc. Do you have any cites? I personally have seen live seahorses floating in circular currents in Barnegat Bay in December, curled up in a semi- suspended state, in about 30 feet of water, with temps around 45F. Very few, though. The key would be sampling trawls, of course. Baymen trawl for crabs and clams in winter, and for grass shrimp bait in early spring. They tell me they almost never see seahorses. Certainly, any overwintering would depend on appropriate currents, since the seagrasses disappear and the seahorses locomotive ability is extremely limited. Obviouly, they cannot migrate on their own. Any suspended cold water survival would depend entirely on water currents.
I agree that there are distinct genetic populations, probably adapted for regional conditions. I very much doubt that any populations feed and reproduce in the cold depths of the north Atlantic. There is also the issue of thermoclines. Even now, with inshore temps in the mid 70s here in NJ, its 20+ degrees colder 10 or 15 meters down. I think there is a lot that's unknown, and I realize that I'm only an interested amateur. Nevertheless, there are large die-offs of seahorses in late fall in the mid-Atlantic. I've seen them. I am also pretty sure that witout the Gulf Stream (which extends past Maine and Nova Scotia and affects their weather) there would be very few seahorses in waters that drop to freezing levels for several months each year. The only places I've observed year round populations of active seahorses in significant numbers have been the grass flats of the Bahamas, Florida, etc. Most of these are H. erectus. Species like Reidi don't become common until you go further south, well into the Caribbean. Again, I'm just an amatuer naturalist, and don't pretend to know a great deal. From what I've read, though, neither does anyone else, and there seem to be lots of experts who have very limited field experience. I have had the experience of seeing, scuba diving off the NJ coast in mid-summer, what semed like acres of small seahorses, tails curled, floating just below the surface 30 or 40 miles offshore, in water bluer and warmer than the surrounding ocean. Maybe they came from some mysterious deepwater source, or maybe they came from the Gulf Stream. I suspect the latter possibility.
I agree that there are distinct genetic populations, probably adapted for regional conditions. I very much doubt that any populations feed and reproduce in the cold depths of the north Atlantic. There is also the issue of thermoclines. Even now, with inshore temps in the mid 70s here in NJ, its 20+ degrees colder 10 or 15 meters down. I think there is a lot that's unknown, and I realize that I'm only an interested amateur. Nevertheless, there are large die-offs of seahorses in late fall in the mid-Atlantic. I've seen them. I am also pretty sure that witout the Gulf Stream (which extends past Maine and Nova Scotia and affects their weather) there would be very few seahorses in waters that drop to freezing levels for several months each year. The only places I've observed year round populations of active seahorses in significant numbers have been the grass flats of the Bahamas, Florida, etc. Most of these are H. erectus. Species like Reidi don't become common until you go further south, well into the Caribbean. Again, I'm just an amatuer naturalist, and don't pretend to know a great deal. From what I've read, though, neither does anyone else, and there seem to be lots of experts who have very limited field experience. I have had the experience of seeing, scuba diving off the NJ coast in mid-summer, what semed like acres of small seahorses, tails curled, floating just below the surface 30 or 40 miles offshore, in water bluer and warmer than the surrounding ocean. Maybe they came from some mysterious deepwater source, or maybe they came from the Gulf Stream. I suspect the latter possibility.
DanU
New member
I don't profess to know it all either. You are right in that there is much to learn.
You would have to check with the Woods Hole Institute on the data at Gooseberry Neck. My info was obtained from informal conversation with a worker there.
Another point of interest, FWIW, is the differences between the H. erectus collected in northern waters and those in southern waters. Southern erectus are very stout with deep chests, have benthic fry. Norhtern erectus seem to be somewhat thinner, fry go through a short pelagic phase and are smaller, and they northern erectus seem to have larger dorsal fins.
Maybe someday we will have all the answers. For now, much of it is a guessing game. Still, it is fun to try to learn all we can. I am just glad I get to collect in the warmer waters now. 14 years in New England was too long!
Dan
You would have to check with the Woods Hole Institute on the data at Gooseberry Neck. My info was obtained from informal conversation with a worker there.
Another point of interest, FWIW, is the differences between the H. erectus collected in northern waters and those in southern waters. Southern erectus are very stout with deep chests, have benthic fry. Norhtern erectus seem to be somewhat thinner, fry go through a short pelagic phase and are smaller, and they northern erectus seem to have larger dorsal fins.
Maybe someday we will have all the answers. For now, much of it is a guessing game. Still, it is fun to try to learn all we can. I am just glad I get to collect in the warmer waters now. 14 years in New England was too long!
Dan
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
You know I always assumed that the northern erectus were a different genetic population that overwintered. However, reading the above, I wonder if its rather a case of how the genes are expressed in different environmental conditions. Perhaps the brief pelagic period is due to stress so the fry will spread further? Not sure what the purpose might be of their other features, if there even would be.
I doubt it, because I have three "northern strain" cb erectus that share the same features as their parents - but it is something to think about.
I doubt it, because I have three "northern strain" cb erectus that share the same features as their parents - but it is something to think about.
TamiW
Seahorse Wrangler
Well, I'm suggesting that is one possibility if Northern Erectus truly die off come winter. It could also be some other environmental factor. It could be something as strange as the physical differences in what we assume is the northern type causes them to be swept up further north in the gulfstream.
I personally am doubting my own hypothesis, but looking for other possible explainations than would explain how they could look different than their southern counterparts if they die off in the winter.
Samala
New member
Possible other hypothesis has already been suggested: There are overwintering breeding populations in the northern areas where there is (potentially) some level of die off. Genetic drift alone between two populations can easily explain the slight changes in morphology.
I wouldnt be surprised if you got some flow in genes from southern SH current-riding up to the more northern areas.
>Sarah
I wouldnt be surprised if you got some flow in genes from southern SH current-riding up to the more northern areas.
>Sarah
It seems to me that the morphological differences between southern H. erectus and the more northerly variants have much to do with age and environmental factors. There is a much longer growing season and more abundant food in tropical and subtropical seagrass communities. Seahorses thrive in these habitats and grow for years, getting much bigger that the average up north, where most are essentially annuals, existing in colder and less benign conditions. I think the northern Gulf Stream strays are a partially distinct genetic population, but I suspect that has to do with their original points of origin as tiny newborns.
I very seldom see really large seahorses up here. They all seem to start off small in early summer, and grow during the next few months. Another batch of newborns appears in late August and September, produced by the seahorses that were youngsters a few months earlier.
I have seen a few big old seahorses in early summer here in NJ. They may have overwintered, or may have drifted in as adults from the Gulf Stream. I once had the good fortune to do some collecting in the Gulf Stream off North Carolina, and saw some big seahorses in masses of weeds, floating wood, etc., along with the juveniles of lots of other fish species. I found three extremely big seahorses living on an old and very large floating dock piling that had become riddled with Teredo worms and covered with a thick layer of encrusting creatures, along with all sorts of tiny shrimps, crabs, tube worms, barnacles, crinoids, sponges, and plants. The erectus seemed fat and happy, living on that little ark, moving northward at 3 or 4 miles per hour, with 3000 feet of water beneath them. I spent some time snorkeling around that log. It was a bit creepy to look down into the infinite blue abyss. I wonder where the seahorses wound up. Perhaps on some lobsterman's lines in Maine.
I think the southern erectus populations are more genetically distinct because they are more geographically stable. Tampa Bay erectus tend to be a singular group that is born, reproduces, lives for years, and dies within the confines of Tampa Bay. This is true of other fairly self-contained large southern bay communities. Erectus populations in places like the Florida Straits may be less isolated and stable.
The whole topic of genetic diversity, the recruitment of new populations, and the ways that marine species extend and maintain their range by having pelagic and planktonic juveniles constantly drifting into new areas is fascinating. We really know very little, in the final analysis. We see only the surface of very deep and ancient processes.
I very seldom see really large seahorses up here. They all seem to start off small in early summer, and grow during the next few months. Another batch of newborns appears in late August and September, produced by the seahorses that were youngsters a few months earlier.
I have seen a few big old seahorses in early summer here in NJ. They may have overwintered, or may have drifted in as adults from the Gulf Stream. I once had the good fortune to do some collecting in the Gulf Stream off North Carolina, and saw some big seahorses in masses of weeds, floating wood, etc., along with the juveniles of lots of other fish species. I found three extremely big seahorses living on an old and very large floating dock piling that had become riddled with Teredo worms and covered with a thick layer of encrusting creatures, along with all sorts of tiny shrimps, crabs, tube worms, barnacles, crinoids, sponges, and plants. The erectus seemed fat and happy, living on that little ark, moving northward at 3 or 4 miles per hour, with 3000 feet of water beneath them. I spent some time snorkeling around that log. It was a bit creepy to look down into the infinite blue abyss. I wonder where the seahorses wound up. Perhaps on some lobsterman's lines in Maine.
I think the southern erectus populations are more genetically distinct because they are more geographically stable. Tampa Bay erectus tend to be a singular group that is born, reproduces, lives for years, and dies within the confines of Tampa Bay. This is true of other fairly self-contained large southern bay communities. Erectus populations in places like the Florida Straits may be less isolated and stable.
The whole topic of genetic diversity, the recruitment of new populations, and the ways that marine species extend and maintain their range by having pelagic and planktonic juveniles constantly drifting into new areas is fascinating. We really know very little, in the final analysis. We see only the surface of very deep and ancient processes.
GROSSR
Active member
Where in NJ do you collect? I am planning to go down to the Shark river area with Danmar26 in Mid August.
I am headed to Tampa on tuesday and will try my hand. However, everything I read about pipefish and Seahorses and SPS in Florida is don't try. I even understand the definition of Landed. It is so confusing. If you are an educator you can get one license that allows you to collect, if you are fishman you can get another license.
I think I will buy the net in Tampa and use it in NJ.
rich
I am headed to Tampa on tuesday and will try my hand. However, everything I read about pipefish and Seahorses and SPS in Florida is don't try. I even understand the definition of Landed. It is so confusing. If you are an educator you can get one license that allows you to collect, if you are fishman you can get another license.
I think I will buy the net in Tampa and use it in NJ.
rich
Grossr, I'll send you a private email about possible Shark River diving. I'm sure you know the tight restrictions about when and where. In Florida the rules for ornamental fish collecting are pretty straightforward, and downloadable. A non-resident SW fishing license can be gotten on line, and confirmed by Florida with an instant Email. Forget about anything resembling coral or live rock in Florida.
There are a few good collecting areas left in NJ, but all are difficult in one way or another. What hasn't been built upon, bulkheaded, or in some way degraded is usually approachable only by boat, is usually marshy, buggy, semi- submerged, and way off any easy access beaten path. Some spots are so tiny that a large number of collectors descending upon them would destroy them. Think structure, appropriate habitat, inlets, calmer backwaters.
There are a few good collecting areas left in NJ, but all are difficult in one way or another. What hasn't been built upon, bulkheaded, or in some way degraded is usually approachable only by boat, is usually marshy, buggy, semi- submerged, and way off any easy access beaten path. Some spots are so tiny that a large number of collectors descending upon them would destroy them. Think structure, appropriate habitat, inlets, calmer backwaters.
