Commercial post restrictions

[crabfan]

I want to start this thread by stating clearly on the record that I've never worked for any pet or aquarium store within a 100 mile radius of my residence. EVER. Therefore, how could commercial posting restrictions possibly apply to me? Anything that I'd have to say wouldn't personally (either directly or indirectly) benefit me.

Take a look at this thread on the Central Ohio reef board.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1053898

So if this is perfectly fine and allowable, then why couldn't we have a post here titled "Fuji is having a coral sale", "Jomars coral sale for CVRC members", or "Berts coral sale for CVRC members"?

I thought the one above may have simply flown by the moderators because Phishybusiness is a paying RC sponsor, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Here are some other examples....

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1072530

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1040179

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1032359

These are all recent posts. If I went back over the past year, I could cite at least 50 other similar (or much much more questionable!) examples.

If we need to establish a "private" board to say that "store X sells IO buckets for $X" then thats cool. But as long as you don't work for the store and have no financial interest one way or another (sorry Ron & Jim!), then simply citing a price has never been a crime. Least not on any of the other RC boards!

Comments/discussion???

 

[carb850]

Good old fashion TAG for responses.

 

[firefish2020]

There is no disrespect intended in this post I promise.

I can not comment on the nature of other groups or clubs or how or what they post or the ways in which they operate.

Perhaps a bit of background information would help here.

The CVRC was formed when Matt and Bruce asked me and Barry to help to make it a reality. In other words, they approached a LFS to help found the club and find members. When this forum was started the club met at the shop. I openly promised the moderators that there would be no commercial posts on our part as long as we could post our meeting information which in itself in those days could have been misconstrued as "commercial" in nature.

After the CVRC grew into something that some LFS saw as a growing threat and unfair advantage and after being accused of using the CVRC as a marketing tool, in order to promote the greater good (the CVRC), the shop agreed to divorce itself from the club.

BUT I am a worker in that particular LFS, we believe in the CVRC as much now as we did when we decided to help found it, and most of the new members hear from us through our personal invitations to join the CVRC and Reef Central.

I am still bound by the promise I made to insure that what is fair for one is fair for all. Whoever wants to advertise here on RC should pay RC for that privilege and right IMO. The LFS that support the CVRC and it's members are greatful and I think they all agree that the CVRC is and should be a noncomercial entity.

Speaking as a LFS employee/manager I have a great respect and admiration for all the LFS owners who support the CVRC. Jim and Fuji are great friends of mine. We get along greatly and I respectfully ask that you do not try to make the CVRC an issue of indirect "advantage or content" to any of us this would only darken the true cause of the club IMO and cause potential problems. We are here to teach, help and produce healthy aquacultured frags for new hobbyists and ourselves. We are not here to create advantages for a PARTICULAR LFS.

Support them all equally thats all I can ask.


"COMMERCIAL POSTING: Reef Central exists for the <b>non-commercial exchange of information.</b> Sponsors of this site are given banner space and/or a forum to promote their business in accordance with the sponsor agreement. <b>All other posts or signatures that are deemed to be commercial in nature are a violation of this user agreement and will be removed. </b>As it pertains to the User Agreement, Reef Central defines “commercial post” as knowing and willful posts made by private individuals or businesses, directly or indirectly seeking commerce. <b>Additionally, posts made by individuals or businesses in regard to other commercial activities, in anticipation of direct or indirect economic benefit</b> or relief from the subject activity, will generally be regarded as “commercial.”


http://www.reefcentral.com/agreement.php


If you want to do a GB that's fine, if you want to discuss prices on this forum about merchandise a LFS has, that's not fine as it could be misconstrued as "commercial" in nature.

 

[H.crispa]

OK, I still need to noodle this out a bit but, thus far my thoughts on this are:
1. We have a pre-existing agreement with RC dating back to our humble beginnings at the pet shop that trumps anything we may be considering now and we need to honor this committment. If we, as an organization, do not honor our word then we have no solid foundation and future dealings with RC and other entities will be in jeopardy.

2. Group buys: All other clubs do GBs. We have done GBs in the past and as long as the identities of the commercial entities with which we deal remain undisclosed, I can see no conflict with RC's policies. In addition, I went to the trouble of finding us a supplier to deal with us directly specifically for GBs. This offers us many advantages, chief among them is that we don't have to order 1000 maxijets to get a volume discount. We can order any number of any item or combination of items so long as we meet the minimum order requirement. I tried no less than 3 times to get a GB going with this supplier to no avail. Few of you climbed on board, so I stopped trying. We still have a standing account with this supplier and we can still do this anytime we want. GBs are fine I suppose as long as the supplier remains unknown to the participants.

3. I posted quite a while back, what I thought was a fair and balanced critique of all the pet shops I have visited in my travels and even ranked them according to my personal opinion. This went too far and ruffled some feathers, so we killed off the thread by mutual consent. I will say that I saw some improvement in a few shops in areas in which I thought they were a little weak, so in the end it may have been a good thing; however, I went a little too far-- unintentionally-- and, well, uh, lesson learned. It is best to keep our topics related to our mission and keep our threads away from specific shops. Of course, before you buy anything from any shop anywhere, the shop should meet some criteria-- like cleanliness and knowledge for instance-- and posting what to look for in every shop is fine so long as no names are mentioned.

4. YOU are PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for what you post. If the moderators smack you on the hands for something you have done (as they have me on several occasions), it's your neck in the noose, not the CVRC's. However, it is the job of the CVRC council to direct the club in a healthy direction and ensure that we remain in good standing in the aquatic community etc. etc. etc.

Final thought:
TREAD LIGHTLY my friends and lets keep this clean.

 

[1package]

Commercial post

Commercial post

“commercial post” as knowing and willful posts made by private individuals or businesses, directly or indirectly seeking commerce. Additionally, posts made by individuals or businesses in regard to other commercial activities, in anticipation of direct or indirect economic benefit or relief from the subject activity, will generally be regarded as “commercial.”

It sounds as though store owners and employees can not make post pertaining to sales or specials because they can in some way benefit from it.

Does not sound as though it applies to everyone else, but I am not an Attorney.

Then if ........

We have a pre-existing agreement with RC dating back to our humble beginnings

And if...............

the shop agreed to divorce itself from the club.

Seems as though when the agreement was made it was under different circumstances and that the postings should now not be an issue now.

Looks that way to me anyway.

 

[coralreefer]

Group buys: All other clubs do GBs. We have done GBs in the past and as long as the identities of the commercial entities with which we deal remain undisclosed , I can see no conflict with RC's policies.

Jason that was my only concern when I mentioned running it by a mod in on that group buy thread.
If for example you or Phil start a thread about a group buy through a local store we'd generally have no idea which store it is like in this thread clam group buy

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=7632525#post7632525 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by phljess
If we can get ten, we can them locally for about 45.00 to 50.00 for a 3+ inch Croceas. So, I would rather buy around here if possible.

I had no idea which store Phil talked to until later when reefs said she'd rather order from Barry, and we still didn't know for sure until Ron's comment on what would be on the order list that week.

On the other hand if Dwight or I post about doing a group buy through a local store it's pretty obvious which one it is.
Since it would be obvious to some which store made the offer I don't want to be accused of shilling for "my store".
Of course this is a dead horse since it looks like there was no interest in working out something locally.

I've been around Reef Central a long time and have a pretty good understanding of their rules...I always know when you're going to get your hand smacked :lol: and agree with Lloyd's post.
Plus I'm not sure we had a "special" agreement

1. We have a pre-existing agreement with RC dating back to our humble beginnings at the pet shop that trumps anything we may be considering now and we need to honor this committment. If we, as an organization, do not honor our word then we have no solid foundation and future dealings with RC and other entities will be in jeopardy.

I openly promised the moderators that there would be no commercial posts on our part as long as we could post our meeting information which in itself in those days could have been misconstrued as "commercial" in nature.

I imagine RC was concerned the club was being started as an advertising venue for the store and wanted extra assurance that wasn't Ron's intention in starting the forum. Especially since they knew upfront the club was connected to a store. I take the "on our part" to mean Jomar's not the club as a whole unless one of us actually made a post that was commercial, which would always be against the UA anyway. Even though we're"divorced" Ron still can't advertise for the store since that would still be commercial.
Now that we've all given our 2 cents wouldn't it be easiest to contact Geo or Agu or another mod and just ask if had a special agreement and if so is it still valid since we're no longer affiliated with any store.

 

[Reef4Fun]

did I do something wrong? If I did, I assure all that it was not my intent.

 

[mcox33]

I think until the Counsil actually contacts RC and Renegotiates our agreement, then we as a club must abide by the agreement we entered into, when we began this club. Until then the no one should post any LFS prices.

 

[carb850]

I understand were Ron is coming from and if he wants to keep the Chemical Valley Reef Club free of any advertisements than we should abide by his rules. I will do my best in the future to keep that in mind.

However, does anyone know were we can share deals that we see in LFS's? Email group or something? I would love to know if someone comes across something of particular interest at JoMar's, Fugi's, Berts, or other whether it is livestock or a sale on hardware.

 

[crabfan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544304#post9544304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralreefer
On the other hand if Dwight or I post about doing a group buy through a local store it's pretty obvious which one it is.

Since it would be obvious to some which store made the offer I don't want to be accused of shilling for "my store".

I'm a big fan of my local store, but I wouldn't want to shill for them. They will either succeed or fail over time, as any business does, by treating customers fairly and with respect. People can judge all on their own who to do business with. Who am I and what does my opinion matter anyway?

Besides, who wants to constantly kiss up to someone and champion their cause? This usually leads to a relationship where the "kissee" starts to be taken for granted and advantage of. I'd prefer to always reserve the right to take my business elsewhere, and wouldn't want to be permanently beholden to anyone.

Besides, in todays day and age, there is nothing that can't be purchased over the internet - usually for much cheaper prices. Due to the mindboggling volume and lack of maintaining retail storefront overhead, there are many top quality vendors among the RC Sponsors that can match or beat any LFS prices anywhere. Hardware & livestock - shipped to your door overnight - and cheaper to boot.

For goodness sake. Bert's at Russell (my local store) is an hour and 15 minute drive from Charleston WV. It takes a lot of time and trouble (usually a whole day) for me to take the time to do the Jomar/Fuji run, and due to the distance and gasoline expense involved, it is usually combined in conjuction with a Best Buy and Wild Bird Unlimited store outing.

In my opinion, there aren't too many unique attractions to draw people from Charleston over to the Ashland area. We have the same WalMart, Lowes, and Petland everyone else does. Even if my local store were giving stuff away, they still couldn't be competitive and attract all that many WV reefers.

It would be as ridiculous as saying the Charleston Gazette newspaper is going to start distributing circulation over here in Kentucky, and shut down the Ashland Daily Independent. Local news is LOCAL news. A LFS is a LOCAL fish store. Isn't going to happen.

There is a very mixed message here. "Support your LFS" is loudly shouted and people called idiots on one hand, but then "Please DON'T mention anything about your LFS" on the other.

I read the explanation you posted more than once Ron, and I can't help what you said to ReefCentral years ago. Your statements or agreements (or those of anyone else - either individually or as a group) aren't binding on me or anyone else here. No matter how it is explained, it just doesn't make sense to me why it is taboo to mention when our favorite LFS is running a sale.

If Bert's were literally giving away tanks for free, and everyone in Charleston thought it was so worthwhile, they went out of their way to come over and get one....ultimately who would it benefit? The stores in the Charleston area. By discouraging free exchange of such information, no one wins.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544304#post9544304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralreefer
I've been around Reef Central a long time and have a pretty good understanding of their rules...I always know when you're going to get your hand smacked :lol: and agree with Lloyd's post.

Exactly. We are here to discuss fishtanks and all associated topics, within the common sense constraints we all agreed to when we established our RC account, not to determine who wields the most power. When anyone (EXCEPT the moderators of ReefCentral) scolds anyone for something they express, it is a power issue. Or else it is bullying....plain and simple.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9544304#post9544304 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by coralreefer Now that we've all given our 2 cents wouldn't it be easiest to contact Geo or Agu or another mod and just ask if had a special agreement and if so is it still valid since we're no longer affiliated with any store.

I disagree strongly Amy. No one should have to contact anyone. The terms of service for using RC message boards apply to everyone equally. Besides, they could NOT discriminate or keep straight some different unwritten verbal agreement with every club on here.

I really like the phrasing that the club has "divorced" from the store. Well, when you select a spouse, YOU marry them....not me. :lol: Any terms that you agree to don't apply to anyone else.

This is why no matter how tiny, any club needs written by-laws. Otherwise, people could potentially just make up rules as they go arbitarily.

 

[firefish2020]

Listen up boys and girls, the agreement was made by me, not the council , not Barry, not anyone, it was not ordered by the Mods. It was a promise I made that the CVRC not Barry, not the shop not anyone else had anything to do with. I made the promise on behalf of a small group who at the time could have cared less what it meant.

In those days the CVRC consisted of about 7 people, it was small and innocent and it was a good will gesture on my part issued to RC that if we were allowed to have this forum (which it looked as though we might not be able to), even though we were meeting at a LFS that there would be no promoting of any kind on our part except for directions to the meetings. We lived with that for over 3 years now, and I really don't understand where all this is coming from now or why?

As you have suggested I have contacted the Mods on this matter and am waiting to hear the final say over it. After it's cleared up there will be no further need for second guessing and you all can do as you please


Personally I realy do not care anymore either way, I say go for it Im sure all the LFS will love to see what there competitors are up too every morning. I made my post to protect all of you individually from problems that could arise from this new policy not the LFSs. You perceived power plays and threats but in reality I could care less and was only thinking of the members and the CVRC. There are some things which I guess need to be cleared up again.

While we are talking about members lets address that as well. You want bi-laws, and rules? I can't even get more than three people to step up and volunteer to help set up meetings. No one wants to send information for name tags, people volunteer for demos and never show up. If this club had Bi-Laws we would have gotten rid of a lot of members a long time ago. You pay no dues you are invited as guests to come together and share your knowledge, information and corals with other members free of charge, it's a more of a family party.

The day will come when I step aside but it is not here yet, when that happens I will personally be the one to shake the hand of the new President transfer what power you may think I have and fade into CVRC or whatever you choose to call your self at that times history.

Until that day, I will continue to run this club as it is until it is ready to stand on it's own feet and it clearly is far from that. If I step down the club disappear and I think we help far to many people and provide a vital need in our area. We need to continue together or stop.

Since it would be obvious to some which store made the offer I don't want to be accused of shilling for "my store".

That's the grey area, and where I see the biggest problems arising. Who is making honest posts and who is just trying to start trouble or make free promotions for favors etc? That is the MODs final say not anyone else's.


I think we need to focus on more serious issues personally but we can discuss this Sunday as well.

However, does anyone know were we can share deals that we see in LFS's? Email group or something? I would love to know if someone comes across something of particular interest at JoMar's, Fugi's, Berts, or other whether it is livestock or a sale on hardware.

I proposed a solution to that problem but got little interest.

Whatever happens I just advise you as Jason said "...keep this clean."

Lets play nice and have fun, we just might accomplish something constructive if we try if not it is going to lead to trouble

 

[mcox33]

I remember the meeting when the RC forum was announced and when the agreement terms were stressed as very important. This was one of the points stressed when the forum was announced. A few of us were already venturing onto the site from time to time. But we had to hunt for post by other in our area, because there was no central location for us to post. I for 1 have no missed a meeting, I know there are a few others who can say this and I will bet at least a few will remember, when this was announced and how excited we were that we were getting our Club Forum.

 

[crabfan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546025#post9546025 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by carb850
I understand were Ron is coming from and if he wants to keep the Chemical Valley Reef Club free of any advertisements than we should abide by his rules.

If I say that Jomar's has the best prices I've ever seen on IO salt buckets locally (which is a true statement by the way), then that isn't an advertisement. I don't work for them or expect any special treatment for stating this. No violation of RC terms at all.

There isn't any question this is the CVRC forum, but all rules of posting are governed and determined solely by REEF CENTRAL alone. We are posting here in abidance with REEF CENTRAL rules - not Ron's rules, Joe's rules, Jack's rules, Jill's rules, or anyone elses rules. If I'm wrong on that, then I guess that I'm a total idiot.

By all means everyone is encouraged to use the "REPORT THIS POST TO A MODERATOR" at the bottom of this message and ask RC to officially review this message and thread. If they suspend my account or send me a message and tell me to shut my trap, then I will gladly comply without compaint.

Again, the terms of service for using RC message boards should apply to everyone equally. They could NOT discriminate or keep straight some different unwritten verbal agreement with every club on here. If there are different rules to posting here, then they would have to be part of your account agreement with RC.

Let me say this with compete sincerity. If I've offended anyone here with any post that I've ever made, please send me a PM and express that. Any PM conversation will be confidential, respectful, and civil. Just as I would hope that any of my public posts have been.

It is not somehow disrespectful or unamerican to ask questions when something seems wrong, illogical, or perhaps even discriminatory.

 

[sixliner6]

I would come to more meetings if they were on saturdays. I might even volunteer.

 

[firefish2020]

I understand were Ron is coming from and if he wants to keep the Chemical Valley Reef Club free of any advertisements than we should abide by his rules.

I respect that but please do not let me speak for you on this matter any longer. That was then and this is now as it's been pointed out by others and the council member I spoke to over the matter. In fact if you read this post from the beginning you will see that I was against it then was advised it was not my responsibility so I don't really care.

I do care if this turns into a firestorm, stops being constructive and goes down hill fast. If that happens this thread will be closed and we will all loose IMO.

It is not somehow disrespectful or unamerican to ask questions when something seems wrong, illogical, or perhaps even discriminatory.

LOL Well yes, there was a time that was a true statement.
I don't care who asks questions but when the answer is given and then re-phrased and re-quoted by people who do not fully understand the context of it, or challenge the answer given things can get or seem personal.

I think we went through similar incidents in the past that threatened our existence as a club. I hoped we all had learned our lessons from that but I suppose it's just something we can expect as we grow.

I have nothing to hide so anyone feel free to address your issues openly here with me on this matter or at the meeting face to face. I have stated for the record and I will do so once more that I do not care what you post, but be careful with your new found power, with it comes great responsibility (Ok I stole that last line but it fit) :thumbsup:

 

[mcox33]

I think that the meetings are still on Sunday due to the fact that there are in general less funerals on Sundays, therefore less likelyhood of a last minute cancellation due to an unexpected funeral.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546916#post9546916 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sixliner6
I would come to more meetings if they were on saturdays. I might even volunteer.

 

[firefish2020]

Your right Marry, plus it costs money to rent a place to hold meetings which no one is volunteering. We barely have enough for door prizes. Wait actually we don't have enough to pay for all the door prizes. Jim, Barry, and Fuji all donated prizes without compensation for this meeting. It takes a lot to run these meetings and we are lucky to have places and people who are willing to make such donations and sacrifices for us. We had a few meetings on Saturdays in the early past and a few members complained they had to work so we moved them to Sundays.

 

[sixliner6]

Oh well.

 

[crabfan]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9546957#post9546957 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by firefish2020

I do not care what you post, but be careful with your new found power, with it comes great responsibility (Ok I stole that last line but it fit) :thumbsup:

Some people could perceive statements like this as inappropriate or a veiled threat. There aren't any "new" powers.

The straight fact is that no one here has any power to limit what you can say except RC, unless you allow them to do so. Fully complying with all Reef Central rules is the complete extent of our great responsibility.

Again, if anyone has been offended by any of my posts, please use your individual power to report the post to an RC moderator.

 

[Lee_Bay]

I'll throw in 2 cents here.
I don't know Ron or Barry personally. I have never been to JoMars or Fuji's although one day I plan to get directions and make the trip.

What I do know of Fuji's and JoMars I know from the posts on this forum. They both sound like respectable, knowlegable establishments whose main purpose for involvement in the CVRC is the promotion of the hobby. Monetary gain doesn't seem to be part of what we hear about either place.
Jim, I'm not leaving you out, I feel the same way about you and Bert's.

We should be able to share GREAT deals that our LFS's have without being ripped for it. EVERYONE benefits from this type of information exchange; LFS's and members alike.

Is this against ReefCentral's rules? The way I read it, anyone affiliated with the store can't and probably shouldn't start or post in a thread regarding such info., but members should be able pass on this information to each other.

Just my view on things.