completely puzzled on this decease

[screwsloose]

ok my qt tank got something in it that i still have not diagnosed yet but has proven to be the mother of all evils. this is salt water related but in general all should apply.

4 months ago i got 4 flame angels to try a harem and had them in qt for 2 weeks and all was going well. had the tank dropped to 1.017 salinity from 1.023 which is the norm to fight off any ich that they may have been carrying but there was no signs of it. one day one appeared blotchy around the eyes and gills and the next day his body was randomly covered with blotches. i figured fungal infection and treated with general cure and an antiparasidic food but he died the next day. two days alter every other fish in the tank died as well from the same thing. closest thing i could find to a culprit was brookynillla but the slime coat never layered off like usually described from what i read

tank went fallow for a month and then i cycled and added damsels to continue the cycle and never showed any signs of the illnesss so i added another fish into qt that contracted and died a week later from the same thing. after that the heater stuck and raised the temp to 98 degrees and i had fish soup, followed by another cycle and then i tried the last round of fish. which were again fine for two weeks and then started showing signs 4 days ago. i tried another full round of general cure,followed by a round of copper and lower salinty to 1.015, and then finally a formulin treatment that have all been unsuccessful. i am at a loss as to how to save the fish that will more then likely be dead by the time i get home tonight and to rid the tank of this horrid decease i somehow go in there.

my final thought is a complete tank tear down and dry it out for a month followed by a 1/10 bleach bath to try to kill it completely. any thoughts other then dropping a bomb in the tank that may save the tear down?

 

[chuckreef]

That is the point of a QT tank. A basically bare tank that can be broken down and re-asmebled in minutes. Don't wait aqnother minute - kill it.

 

[billsreef]

From the sounds of it, it's likely some kind of protozoan. Based on the length of time the tank has gone fallow and it's still been around, it's probably not an obligate parasite, but rather an opportunistic one that is capable of subsisting on various organic matter in the tank other than fish. After something like that, I would nuke the tank with bleach and start the QT over again.

As for the current fish in your QT, how long did you run each of the treatments you mentioned before switching to a different one?

 

[screwsloose]

i start imediately with general cure the first night and the fourth night, floowed by copper the second week and another dose 4 days later. this week i started the fomulin treatment when i seen it starting again as a last ditch effort. they looked good right up til the day of onset. and both were dead today when i got home. here are pics of what they look like when they are done. very washed out and blotchy

 

[billsreef]

We've got to refine your treatment schedules

General cure is not going to be effective on aerobic protozoans, which are most of the protozoan infections that we commonly come across. Also for things it is effective for (not nearly as much as they claim), it needs to be dosed twice, 48 hours apart. That would be the first night and the third night, not the forth.

Copper, unless using mardels coppersafe, needs to be tested for and dosed daily to maintain levels in the therapeutic range for 4 weeks. Of all the coppers formulations out there, I find SeaChem's Cupramine the best.

Formalin works best as either dips of 1ml/gallon of SW for up to an hour, or prolonged immersion of much lower doses (.015 to .025 ml per l)to the tank every other day.

 

[madmike]

How big is the QT tank? Could you be getting an ammonia spike when you dose the copper. I believe copper will kill of some of the normal bacterial fauna, coupled with the large fish in a small tank = death. Just a guess tho, lord knows I have had my share of QT losses

 

[screwsloose]

qt tank is 75 gls. sp tank size really isnt the issue. so what would be a better qt treatment schedule? i treat general cure for internal parasites mainly. it has always worked for me in the past but not doing anything for this unfortunately. i am using mardels coppersafe. there was a small spike last night of ammonia after the formuline treatment but it was only .25 ppm so i dont think it would have been fatal. im leaning towards the illness doing it.

 

[RouDaiLLe]

Hello,

I have notice something about the bad effect of the coppers on angelfish, while the disease could reverse normally, adding to much copper would damage the way that angelfish breathe and would lead them to death.

Therefore, i am very skeptical concerning the use of cooper with angelfishs.

Did you try to catch the fish and put them in unsalt water?
This is working specifically on angelfish of the imperator you have which can live up to 10/12 minutes in normal water.

++

 

[screwsloose]

i have tried fresh water dips but it did not appear to help in any way at all.
from what i have read it everything says formalin treatments would work for this but it didnt in my case. so dips would have been better then full tank treatments?

 

[billsreef]

I don't think it's a copper problem, or that low level of ammonia. Coppersafe is actually pretty hard to OD with really going overboard. While it's generally safe with copper sensitive species, it's also not the most effective copper out there. I'd really look at switching to Cupramine. It's very effective and safe with copper sensitive species, with the only draw back being the need to test and adjust the copper levels daily.

Possibly hitting it with formalin or copper early on might have done the trick. A lot of times with these type infections it is a matter of how fast you treat. Most of the common external parasites will cause death faster than the internal stuff, so I would go for treating for those first, and the internal stuff secondary. Copper will hit both ich and amyloodinium, so I'd go with that one first and anything else as needed afterward.

With choosing dip vs. long term immersion for formalin treatment, dips will knock a lot of parasites off faster, but you also need to be returning the fish to a clean parasite free tank to prevent reinfection after each dip. If you can't be sure of that, your better off with prolonged immersion that will also take care of anything residing in the tank.

 

[screwsloose]

so then formalin dip first day followed by copper for a week and then general cure would be a better cycle to hit everything?

 

[billsreef]

I would go a minimum of 14 days with the copper, preferable 4 weeks.

 

[screwsloose]

ok well i nuked the tank last night so i should be starting with a clean slate now. and ill start the new treatment after i recycle the tank. thanks for the help