Completely Puzzled....?
- Thread starter MrHarvard
- Start date
CrazyEyes
New member
So lastnight around this time I checked the NO3 with my Api kit, I know it's not recommended but it's what I have for now. And within 35-45 seconds the formula turned that bright red that has been haunting my life for months. Tonight I tested again, I put it in the bathroom out of sight and gave it the full 5 minutes as suggested. Went in and it was much much lighter than it was 24 hours ago, still a darker orange but, nowhere near the blood red it has been. I then thought I have to do it again, so once again I did the test and waited the 5 minutes went and checked it. Same thing, still a darker orange but nowhere near as dark as it was lastnight. These color although hard to decide which color matches on the test sheet it is still MUCH lighter than it was. So, fingers crossed.
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
Lol, I've been there before, glad to see your still hanging in there
Rbs07fxstc
New member
It wouldn't surprise me if u still had some die off from the rocks. I set my tank up with rock from established tank & used the die off to cycle my tank. Plus if your adding bacteria then I'm guessing you don't have enough bacteria in the tank. It could be as simple as your tank didnt have enough bacteria to handle your fish load plus with the amount of food you have been feeding just compounded on top of it. You could also try feeding pellets to the fish. It's much easier to control the amount of food & they are likely to eat every one of them if added slow enough. Larger water changes will bring the nitrates down quicker than doing frequent small (normal) changes.
Last edited:
jaynigz
New member
This is the ONLY possible reason. I can't think of anything else. Because an initial testing right after a LARGE water change should show substantial drop in nitrate. If it doesn't, it's your test kit or your water.
You tank is indeed a puzzle. Ever consider starting all over with dry rocks?
Ted_C
Active member
Red Sea just commented on a post - it takes 14-17 days for NOx-POx to build up enough of the right bacteria in the tank to start stripping nitrates/phosphates.
You should also be skimming wet with this product - your bubble break line should be near the top of your skimmer.
I would also stop the microbac dosing as snake suggested. even though its "not supposed" to be causing this - you've got to start removing variables to narrow down the cause.
You should also be skimming wet with this product - your bubble break line should be near the top of your skimmer.
I would also stop the microbac dosing as snake suggested. even though its "not supposed" to be causing this - you've got to start removing variables to narrow down the cause.
MrHarvard
"ship it"
There is absolutely no reason to stop dosing Microbactor7 in fact stopping it could make it even worse. I'm assuming the few who have suggested you stop using it are familiar with the product? Mike if there is one thing I am sure of its that you should definitely continue to dose bacteria. More "good" bacteria is exactly what your tank needs right now to help breakdown whatever it is causing this. It is basically helping your biological filtration breakdown the nitrates. If you don't have enough "good" bacteria in your tank and you stop dosing Microbactor7 the NOx POx is going to do you no good. The NOx POx is basically carbon dosing which means your feeding the bacteria. If you don't have enough good bacteria to consume the carbon then you actually start feeding the bad bacteria. I think your headed in the right direction just may take some time is all.
BlueCoast
New member
Great advice, at this point it is some serious grade A troubleshooting. Step 1 is to eliminate as many variables as possible, then start modifying things one by one to find the culprit. Too many changes at once can introduce new problems and keep you hunting forever.
The bacteria in a bottle is pretty dilute compared to the bacteria in your tank, I would be very surprised to see it have any measurable effect on organics.
I would mix up a small batch of fresh salt mix and test it. This is an important step as we need to account for everything going into the tank at this point. Someone else mentioned pulling a rock and testing it after it soaks in some fresh saltwater, this will let you know if the rock is playing a role in the excess nitrates.
Two 30% water changes should roughly halve your nitrates.
Ted_C
Active member
Absoluetly Not! Read this entire thread please
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2090960
If Mike's cycled his tank (which he obviously has), he already has bacteria.
While this doesn't specifically link Nitrates to Microbacter7 - it does go into the specifics about bacterial competition and how it's a useless product. your established bacteria on the rock and in the sand is more than capable to convert ammonia to nitrates. The only way to convert nitrates to nitrogen is an area without oxygen. How in the world do you think microbacter7 is going to do that?
There's no good bacteria in Microbacter7 that Mike doesn't already have in his tank to solve his nitrates issue. There's no bad bacteria he has in his tank. Everything's doing the jobs they were designed for.
Hence the removal of a variable that could be exasperating his nitrate problems.
BlueCoast
New member
I've never been to keen on anything that claims to have live bacteria while sitting on a shelf at a LFS. There are so many different types of bacteria that populate our aquariums, most are not suspended in the water column but live on the rocks, sand and glass. One of the best ways to get a good dose of bacteria is to seed from another well established tank using a piece of live rock or some established live sand.
That said, I don't see how dosing bacteria could hurt.
MrHarvard
"ship it"
Ted we can agree to disagree on this topic. I agree that taking out as many variables as possible is the best way to go but I would continue to dose bacteria. If Mikes tank has been established for years then I would be agreeing with you on the fact that he should have enough bacteria already in his tank but his tank is still fairly new. I'm also not sure what you mean by there not being any bad bacteria in his tank because there is definitely bad bacteria in reef tanks. I read that post and like always there was mixed reviews and opinions. I personally think it is very useful and that is does do what it is supposed to do. I hope you didn't take what I said personally I was just voicing my opinion as were you.
MrHarvard
"ship it"
Agreed there are better ways to get bacteria like the ones you mentioned. I do think that dosing bacteria helps and does not hurt.
MrHarvard
"ship it"
Bingo!
BlueCoast
New member
Whatever is being done now, should continue to be done while adjusting things one at a time. If 2 30% water changes are planned, I would not make any other changes until I see the results of the 2 water changes. Doing water changes AND stopping the microbacter means you now have 2 variables that have changed.
Rbs07fxstc
New member
Couldn't he just test the mb7 for nitrates? What's the possibility that the bacteria in it has died or has just gone bad? But I'd bet his problem is just its too new of a setup & it's starting to crash from being over fed & populated to quickly.
aguila88psi
Zoa Addict
doing two 30% water changes will only drop nitrates from 200ppm to 98ppm, see math below.
Initial value: 200ppm
First water change @ 30% only removes 60ppm -> 200 x .3 = 60
Value after first water change: 140ppm -> 200 -60 =140
Second water change @ 30% only removes 42ppm -> 140 x .3 = 42
Value after second water change: 98ppm which is 140 - 42 = 98
Initial value: 200ppm
First water change @ 30% only removes 60ppm -> 200 x .3 = 60
Value after first water change: 140ppm -> 200 -60 =140
Second water change @ 30% only removes 42ppm -> 140 x .3 = 42
Value after second water change: 98ppm which is 140 - 42 = 98
Ted_C
Active member
A few nuggets I like from that thread:
These are from Randy Holmes Farley and TMZ two of the names I respect most on Reef Central.
I'll take it one step further in regards to Mike's problem. Mike can't specifically test for the bacteria he is dosing via microbacter7 (assuming he doesn't have a lab grade 1000x microscope with the appropiate stains). Therefore he can't tell if this dose of bacteria is actually working or dying off by being out-competed by his already established bacteria. We all know that adding things to the tank where: you can't identify the ingredients and you cant test for it are bad husbandry practices.
If his dose is dying off those building blocks of the bacteria are getting consumed by other bacteria and getting broken down into the base building blocks - PO4 and N.
Water changes that mike is performing isn't really removing bacteria (it is - but most of the bacteria reside in the rocks and in the sand - its not really free-floating in the water).
And correct me if I'm wrong - but it looks like Mike isn't running biopellets. Isn't the only reason to dose bacteria after initial cycle is to maintain the biopellets functionality?
I'll concede that Microbacter7 helps the two following situations: Tank Turbidity/Clarity and phosphate reduction. I see no benefit in reducing nitrate to nitrogen though. I also see no benefit in using this to reduce ammonia to nitrate (his established tank bacteria is already doing that).
These are from Randy Holmes Farley and TMZ two of the names I respect most on Reef Central.
I'll take it one step further in regards to Mike's problem. Mike can't specifically test for the bacteria he is dosing via microbacter7 (assuming he doesn't have a lab grade 1000x microscope with the appropiate stains). Therefore he can't tell if this dose of bacteria is actually working or dying off by being out-competed by his already established bacteria. We all know that adding things to the tank where: you can't identify the ingredients and you cant test for it are bad husbandry practices.
If his dose is dying off those building blocks of the bacteria are getting consumed by other bacteria and getting broken down into the base building blocks - PO4 and N.
Water changes that mike is performing isn't really removing bacteria (it is - but most of the bacteria reside in the rocks and in the sand - its not really free-floating in the water).
And correct me if I'm wrong - but it looks like Mike isn't running biopellets. Isn't the only reason to dose bacteria after initial cycle is to maintain the biopellets functionality?
I'll concede that Microbacter7 helps the two following situations: Tank Turbidity/Clarity and phosphate reduction. I see no benefit in reducing nitrate to nitrogen though. I also see no benefit in using this to reduce ammonia to nitrate (his established tank bacteria is already doing that).
