Cooperband Butterfly Help

[VJV]

Well, both fish are eating well so now to the next stage: prophylactic treatment. I have witnessed the CBB twitching its head left and right and trying to scrape its nose in the pvc pipes a couple of times so I am planning to do the following:

1- 1h Paraguard bath
2- 3-4 weeks of Cupramine

The problem I now face is that from what I have heard my flame Angel may not tolerate copper... I will ramp up the concentration gradually and see what happens... Fingers crossed!

 

[Shawn O]

Some pics!

Quoted to make pics viewable.

 

[laga77]

I have had my CCB for about three months now. He went through some serious lymphto in the first month but is fine now. It went away on it`s own. I feed him mostly white worms which he LOVES. I also target feed the white worms to the 5 different types of NPS in the tank. The problem I have is the CCB will pull the white worms out of the NPS. I either have to cover them or shoo the CCB away, and he is learning to ignore the long baster. At times, I think I am the only one who is trying to get a CCB not to eat.

 

[VJV]

[emoji1][emoji1][emoji1] now that is not your typical CBB problem!

Mine has become a real pig and can not get enough Mysis! I have started to mix brine shrimp enriched with spirulina and garlic and he eats them with gusto!

And he has also became best friends with the Flame Angel! They even sleep together in the same piece of pipe [emoji3].

I will try and post a video of them eating.

 

[VJV]

Quoted to make pics viewable.

Thanks! Did not know they were not visible...?

 

[VJV]

Quick update

The CBB and the Flame Angel are doing great. They are now eating both mysis and enriched brine shrimp with garlic and spirulina. I am into my second week of Paraguard treatment. I will do 3 weeks of Paraguard and than move to 3 weeks with Cupramine. I will ramp up a Cupramine slowly and if I see the Angel reacting badly I will move it into the DT, given by than he will have at least gone thigh the Paraguard treatment.

 

[VJV]

Feeding quite nervous.... [emoji16] even though I have been treating with Paraguard for one week I have noticed that the CBB often shakes his head and sometimes seems to dart around e tank very nervous. He also sometimes scratches his cheeks in the pipes. He housed to do this once or twice but in spite of the Paraguard he has started to do it more often. So I decided to treat the tank with Praziquantel today. I am using Sera Tremazol. The instructions tell you to add 1ml per 15L of water, wait for 6h and than do a 80% water change. After 7 days you have to repeat the treatment.

Both the CBB and the Flame Angel seem to be ok, though last time I tried this medicine my Flame Angel flipped to its side and a couple of days later died.

It's been 3h and so far so good. The fish (especially the Flame Angel) seem to be a bit reclusive and went into hiding after I added the Tremazol but seem to be fine. The CBB is out and sometimes twitches it's pectoral fins rapidly, as if trying to shake off something.

At the bottom of the tank I can see several semi-translucent disks, which kind of look like transplant scales... But are perhaps flukes...

Wish me luck!

 

[rjallen]

Feeding quite nervous.... [emoji16] even though I have been treating with Paraguard for one week I have noticed that the CBB often shakes his head and sometimes seems to dart around e tank very nervous. He also sometimes scratches his cheeks in the pipes. He housed to do this once or twice but in spite of the Paraguard he has started to do it more often. So I decided to treat the tank with Praziquantel today. I am using Sera Tremazol. The instructions tell you to add 1ml per 15L of water, wait for 6h and than do a 80% water change. After 7 days you have to repeat the treatment.

Both the CBB and the Flame Angel seem to be ok, though last time I tried this medicine my Flame Angel flipped to its side and a couple of days later died.

It's been 3h and so far so good. The fish (especially the Flame Angel) seem to be a bit reclusive and went into hiding after I added the Tremazol but seem to be fine. The CBB is out and sometimes twitches it's pectoral fins rapidly, as if trying to shake off something.

At the bottom of the tank I can see several semi-translucent disks, which kind of look like transplant scales... But are perhaps flukes...

Wish me luck!

First, congratulations on your CCB eating. Mine devours black worms but still will not eat anything else except pods.

1st. Your CCB's shaking MAY be a sign of excitement. I have heard this described before by other owners. My guy does this when I approach the tank, especially if I am holding a baster with black worms. I have watched him for hours and he normally does not do this at other times. I have never seen him rubbing his nose/mouth on any surface. I have seen him strike at pods or black worms lodged in tight places. Could this be what your are seeing?
2nd I use Paraguard for one hour dips at the end of my acclimation process. It is listed as a treatment for ick, velvet, other external parasites and treating external infections. It is a very broad spectrum tool but it is not the first choice for many on these issues. Its main active ingredient is Malachite Green. I have used this for years and have seen it kill ick and cure velvet. It does this slowly therefor a very sick fish will not be able to survive a severe infestation. That's why copper is better in those cases. Years ago I had my pharmacist compound cooper formulations. Seachem's Cupramine is a great leap forward but its still copper and copper is a poison. I believe, if your fish have shown absolutely no signs or symptoms of ich, your Paraguard at proper therapeutic concentrations will be plenty for your two fish.
3rd I am not familiar with Tremazol. But is sounds harsh. Prazi is fairly gentle and good for INTERNAL parasites, flukes. It does little for ich. If I have to treat a severe fluke infestation, I use RODI water buffered to 8.0+ pH and temperature matched, dipping for 10 minutes or until the fish shows extreme discomfort. I follow with treatment of Paraguard plus Prazro in a hospital tank. That works. Metro can also be used but it is hard on fish.

Lastly and of the school that does not treat in my QT unless I have observed a disease process. Good luck and let us know how everything works out.

RJ

 

[Fishmommy]

I would really love a PM about where to buy live black worms.

In the past month my CBB has eaten all my pods and aptasia, but has turned up his nose at everything I have offered. I have tried Mysis, PE Mysis, Mussel, Cyclops, Reef Frenzy, Omnivore Blend, Live brine shrimp, flakes, pellets, minced scallop, clam, shrimp, aaaaargh!
Guy at the store swore he was eating frozen. Liar!

 

[rjallen]

I would really love a PM about where to buy live black worms.

In the past month my CBB has eaten all my pods and aptasia, but has turned up his nose at everything I have offered. I have tried Mysis, PE Mysis, Mussel, Cyclops, Reef Frenzy, Omnivore Blend, Live brine shrimp, flakes, pellets, minced scallop, clam, shrimp, aaaaargh!
Guy at the store swore he was eating frozen. Liar!

Sending PM

 

[VJV]

First of all, I went through the Tremazol (praziquantel) bath and both fish seem to be doing fine [emoji2][emoji2][emoji2]. There were some 15-20 semi transparent whitish flakes at the bottom of the tank which are probably flukes that came off the fish. Have not seen the CBB scraping again so I believe this took care of it. Will do another treatment in 7 days as per instructions.

First, congratulations on your CCB eating. Mine devours black worms but still will not eat anything else except pods.

Thanks! He now eats Artemia and Mysis with gusto [emoji4]!



1st. Your CCB's shaking MAY be a sign of excitement. I have heard this described before by other owners. My guy does this when I approach the tank, especially if I am holding a baster with black worms. I have watched him for hours and he normally does not do this at other times. I have never seen him rubbing his nose/mouth on any surface. I have seen him strike at pods or black worms lodged in tight places. Could this be what your are seeing?

No, this is not it. It is a bare bones tank so I have no pods in there. He basically scrapes his cheeks against the edge of the PVC pipes. As there are no white spots on either fish I am inclined to this being flukes. The head shaking however, as you mention, could be a sign of excitement.


2nd I use Paraguard for one hour dips at the end of my acclimation process. It is listed as a treatment for ick, velvet, other external parasites and treating external infections. It is a very broad spectrum tool but it is not the first choice for many on these issues. Its main active ingredient is Malachite Green. I have used this for years and have seen it kill ick and cure velvet. It does this slowly therefor a very sick fish will not be able to survive a severe infestation. That's why copper is better in those cases. Years ago I had my pharmacist compound cooper formulations. Seachem's Cupramine is a great leap forward but its still copper and copper is a poison. I believe, if your fish have shown absolutely no signs or symptoms of ich, your Paraguard at proper therapeutic concentrations will be plenty for your two fish.

Spoke with Seachem and Paraguard will not do anything for flukes. And I also had an experience when treating my fish where after 2 weeks of treating with Paraguard all of a sudden a yellow eye Kole tang that seemed fine through those 2 weeks died in one day from what I believe was Velvet. I switched to cupramine and managed to save the other fish that were in the hospital tank at the time, but kind of left me the idea that Paraguard is perhaps not ideal for Ich or Velvet.




3rd I am not familiar with Tremazol. But is sounds harsh. Prazi is fairly gentle and good for INTERNAL parasites, flukes. It does little for ich. If I have to treat a severe fluke infestation, I use RODI water buffered to 8.0+ pH and temperature matched, dipping for 10 minutes or until the fish shows extreme discomfort. I follow with treatment of Paraguard plus Prazro in a hospital tank. That works. Metro can also be used but it is hard on fish.



Lastly and of the school that does not treat in my QT unless I have observed a disease process. Good luck and let us know how everything works out.



RJ

I lost half my fish this summer because I did not quarantine a Flame Angel. That, plus all the stress of catching all the fish, putting the, in tight quarters, leaving the main display fallow for 2 months... Do jot want to go down that road again. So I now quarantine everything before putting in the display tank, and treat with cupramine so that I am sure that no fish is carrying that disease, even if it is not showing any symptoms.

So, I would love not to use Cupramine and just go with Paraguard, but my previous experience led me to believe that it may not be effective against ich or Velvet...

Thanks for all the help! I will keep posting my progress. The CBB is amazing, and almost doglike in the way that he recognizes me and gets all excited, and has no fear of me even when I have my hands in the tank.

 

[rjallen]

A fresh water bath 10 minutes with matched parameters is effective for flukes. Seachem also claims Paraguard is effective. See the quote below from the Seachem forum. The responder is a Seachem employee. I believe a dip with Paraguard at the higher concentrations for dips is also effective= 1 hour dip. Long term in hospital tank follow-up treament with Paraguard is recommended. Prazi has some effect on flukes as well.



The following was followed from the Seachem website.

Old 11-18-2013, 15:14
Tech Support AH Tech Support AH is offline
Super Moderator

Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 85
Re: Treating Flukes with Paraguard
Hello Biscuit,

Thank you for your post! Paraguard can be very effective against flukes, especially when used as a dip. That being said, you must still eradicate any flukes that are in the tank as well. I would recommend treating for at least 2 weeks, although the 21 days that you mentioned would be even more ideal for eradication purposes. You will want to remove all chemical filtration media (Purigen, nitrate remover and phosphate remover) and treat using the dosing instructions on the bottle. Even though ParaGuard is a very safe treatment, when treating Discus I would recommend that you begin with a lower than recommended dosage and building up to the normal strength dose slowly as Discus can be easily stressed. This will allow you to better monitor the effects of the medication on your fish. In addition, the ParaGuard will also help to ward off secondary infections that can sometimes accompany parasite infestations. To do a dip with Paraguard, simply follow the instructions on the label: (For 1 hour dips, use 3 mL per 4 L (1 gallon*). Dips may be extended if fish show no evidence of stress.)

I hope this helps. Have a nice day!

 

[VJV]

Thanks again rj! I had also given a 1h Paraguard bath to the FA, but unfortunately not to the CBB. And since the flukes were already in the QT and apparently Paraguard was not solving the issue I decided to treat the whole tank to this 6h Tremazol (Praziquantel) bath. From the amount of what I believe to be flukes that ended up at the bottom of the tank I believe it was a good choice. A bath now and than returning them to the infected QT would probably meant they would get re infected again. I have also read in tons of posts that Prazi is the most effective treatment for flukes so that is what I went with. Glad it turned out ok [emoji4].

Now I am wondering whether I can go back to the Paraguard treatment. After the 80% water change the concentration must be pretty low but than again mixing medicines is never a good idea! and never recommended by the manufacturer. However, I have seen a number of Quarantine articles stating that they use Prazi and Paraguard at the same time, with no ill effects.

 

[Fishmommy]

Quick question....i have a worm feeding cone and live blackworms, but the CBB is so focused on the rockwork that he misses the feast. Any training tips?

 

[rjallen]

Quick question....i have a worm feeding cone and live blackworms, but the CBB is so focused on the rockwork that he misses the feast. Any training tips?

As you know the BWs die pretty quickly in salt water. I use a turkey baster with RO or RODI water when I suck up the worms from their dish. My guy knows what the turkey baster means and is not afraid of it. Simply squirt a little in front your CBB and he will get the message fast. You can use the currents in your tank and distract the rest of your fish by squirting one or two small bursts in a direction that will carry the worms away from your CBB. Then quickly give your CBB a squirt in front of his face. All your ring will do is contain the BWs as they die. You want your CBB to see the wiggle.

Hope this helps and good luck.

RJ

 

[Fishmommy]

woohoo! THANK YOU
he ate some blackworms I squirted into the rocks in front of him today.
Let the training begin. Hopefully I can squirt frozen food over time once he gets conditioned to a) the baster and b) floating food

 

[VJV]

Just to report a curious thing. Going into my last week (6) of quarantine, the CBB suddenly lost its interest in Mysis and now only goes for the enriched Brine. I. Is curious because initially he would only eat Mysis, but there you go. Even fish get tired of eating the same thing I guess. [emoji4]

 

[rjallen]

Just to report a curious thing. Going into my last week (6) of quarantine, the CBB suddenly lost its interest in Mysis and now only goes for the enriched Brine. I. Is curious because initially he would only eat Mysis, but there you go. Even fish get tired of eating the same thing I guess. [emoji4]

After 6 week QT I introduced my guy into the DT tank. It was a little rough for the 1st 4 days. I anticipated trouble from the Kole Tang and he lived up to my expectations. More trouble came from an totally unexpected source. My Foxface has always been a super good guy and never gave his tank mates a moment of trouble. Perhaps it is shape of the CBB or whatever but he decided he did not like the new guy either. Used two mirrors and they helped a lot! Keep the fish at the other end of the tank. Now there is the occasional lung or short chase but the CBB is handling it very well. He is back eating......black worms mostly. Pretty much ignores everything else. But he hangs in with the other fish going after the black worms and gets his share.
As I said the trouble has simmered down.

The strange thing is my CBB completely ignores the nuisance anemones and I have not seen him hunt over the rocks. At least he is eating and not hiding.

RJA

 

[rjallen]

Update
Before I purchased my CBB, l bought a Yellow Tang. He had spent 4 weeks in my QT. I put the Copperband into the same and only QT and reset the clock. After 7 weeks, I decided to put the Copperband into the DT. See above. Everyone had settled down after 3 weeks, l have put the yellow fellow into the display tank. I just knew the Yellow Tang would really get it from my Kole Tang. There were a few bumps between the two but everything settled down within hours except for my Foxface who again was the truoblemaker. That took just a few days longer.
Back when the Copperband and Yellow Tang were in QT, I had to partition the QT because the Yellow Tang was pushing the Copperband around. In the DT the two fish became best buddies and now sleep in the same place. So, at least in my case, everything is going great.

RJ

 

[VJV]

Great to hear everything is going well for you! In my case the CBB is happy as a puppy in the DT. Swims around the entire tank and constantly hunts for prey. He never stopped eating but now prefers enriched brine over mysis.

Oh, and the morning after I put him in my only aiptasia was gone [emoji4][emoji4][emoji4]

It was a small one in the middle of a zoa frag that I had tried to kill several times but always failed as it would quickly retract. It seems the CBB found it as soon as he got in [emoji4]. Sort of like those chocolates fancy hotels leave in your pillow.