wooden_reefer
New member
Three days is a long time and you are relying on Prime.
What if you have to use a medication that may interact with Prime?
Copper then transfer method
- Thread starter HumbleFish
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Three days is a long time and you are relying on Prime.
What if you have to use a medication that may interact with Prime?
Ammonia isn't much of an issue after just 3 days, so long as you keep a moderate TT bio-load. And if you do have ammonia issues, you can use a reducer.
I think the main issue with TT is those who have hectic/unpredictable work schedules. I know I've had to abandon TT on more than one occasion when I suddenly had to leave town. Also, it's probably impractical to use TT with very large fish; the biggest I've ever crammed into my 10 gal TT was a 6" foxface.
Deinonych
New member
I don't consider 3 days to be a long time in the grand scheme of things. Prime is a proven ammonia detoxifier, so I guess I don't understand your point?
If something popped up that required treatment, I would move the fish to a new aquarium and start treatment there.
I think the max bio-load I ever TT'd was a pair of dwarf angels and small Chevron Tang in a 10 gal. I fed them once a day. Never once had to use an ammonia reducer.
Maximum time trophont can remain on a fish
Maximum time trophont can remain on a fish
The stickies and most of the literature I've read states that the ich trophont stays on the fish for "about 3โ7 days" before leaving the host.
Is there any reason to believe a trophont could stay on a fish for longer than 7 days? If so, what would be the absolute maximum number of days? I assume <13, or otherwise TT could fail. TIA
Maximum time trophont can remain on a fish
The stickies and most of the literature I've read states that the ich trophont stays on the fish for "about 3โ7 days" before leaving the host.
Is there any reason to believe a trophont could stay on a fish for longer than 7 days? If so, what would be the absolute maximum number of days? I assume <13, or otherwise TT could fail. TIA
Try putting a pair of basabei butterfly's or a big conspic in a 10 gallon with no bio filter. Too active. Eat too much and fish has too much mass. I use 40 and 50 gallon breeders. And have 80 gallon regufiums now I can use and shut off to main system. My main choice is my hospital tank with bioballs!!! And if copper or antibiotics eat away at the biofilter I'm doing water changes anyway daily. This last round of antibiotics with personatus angels was done by taking 40 gallon off line anmd draining water below drain line and doing 2waterchanges per day and reading kanna and neomycin amd metrodonizole and just reading every water change to get back to even. Btw fore what it's worth the kanna and furan didn't seem to have that much impact on biofilter.neither did Tripple sulfa. But cipro killed it and neoplex suppressed it. No effect from metrodonizole either in water or food. Baytril in the food oh boy!!! I had fish swimming upside down with bloat!! Don't do that!! They are all healed and doing well now. I just feel like ttm is just so difficult with big chunky fish or sensitive fish and wonder if you better just using cp if copper is not alternative. Can someone tell me why old time copper sulfate citric acid at, 20ppm ie old seatest copper is no longer popular and everyone is using some sortof cupramine or chelated copper at. 50.??? What am I missing???
Well, in the presence of copper (which can mask velvet or crypto and probably brook and even uronema), all bets are off on the front end of the life cycle times.
ReefCurrent2015
In Memoriam
I agree with Steve here. I've definitely had copper mask ICH.
I belive the best thing to do is to TTM all new arrivals. 2x Prazipro. Then observe in non-medicated tank for 6 weeks. If and when something presents itself, deal with it then. That's if you can get it ID'ed. Sometimes it's tricky!
I belive the best thing to do is to TTM all new arrivals. 2x Prazipro. Then observe in non-medicated tank for 6 weeks. If and when something presents itself, deal with it then. That's if you can get it ID'ed. Sometimes it's tricky!
I agree that this is the best quarantine protocol (although I only observe for 4 weeks). The only real tricky one to figure out is differentiating brook and uronema. The best can be behaviorally and/or visibly determined fairly easily.
Deinonych
New member
In all fairness, I would not expect you to embrace TTM. You are an advanced aquarist who keeps rare and delicate species, and you've been doing this a long time. You know what works for you, and see no reason to "fix what ain't broke."
For the newbie or individual that is struggling with Cryptocaryon, tank transfer is a nearly foolproof way to ensure one's livestock is free of one of the most pervasive pests in this hobby. Not a day goes by in this forum without someone posting about getting a new fish with crypto and not knowing how to deal with it. Copper is a tried and true method that is highly effective, but it can be a major pain in the butt to dose correctly and ensure fish don't have a negative reaction. Not to mention the fact that the available test kits are difficult to read. Tank transfer takes all the guesswork out of treatment, does not use chemicals, and targets the most predictable phase of the parasite's life cycle. Should it be used in every situation and with every fish? Probably not, but for the majority of fish commonly kept in this hobby, it's a no-brainer.
I thought masking only happened if the fish was in a non-therapeutic level of copper. FWIW; I would probably use CP for this experiment, since I can ramp that up to therapeutic levels in a single dosage.
That is correct. But keeping it at that level requires testing and maintenance. If TT takes too much effort or schedule stress, using copper is not the treatment for you.
So copper would be out, since you have to gradually raise that and expose the fish to non-therapeutic levels for a short period of time. But with CP, I can raise it to (what I believe are) therapeutic levels in one dose.
Now getting back to how long trophonts can remain... Assuming an ich infested fish wasn't exposed to non-therapeutic levels, is there any reason to believe it could take longer than 7 days for a trophont to drop off? I'm researching this on my own, but I greatly appreciate (and respect) your input on this Steve. I'm sorry if it seems like I'm trying to buck the system.
CP for 4 weeks is likely to solve your problem completely; as you know, there is no test for CP concentration. Copper, however, needs to be monitored to insure it remains at a therapeutic level. The problem is not as difficult as trying to maintain hypo but still, to insure (close to) 100% success, it should be tested. But I must say, I think you are creating a Gordian knot when tank transfer is just so easy and fool proof.
wooden_reefer
New member
Why does using Cu take much effort?
Using Cu takes the least amount of effort, almost no work.
The two greatest advantages of straight Cu is that it does not affect nitrification and that UV does not degrade it.
I basically care for the fish as I would in a FO DT. I QT like this for long durations, 12 weeks min.
QT is not only about ich.
Acclimation is a large part of QT. Fish often have gone thru great ordeal in collection and transit. Some have eaten little. So most imperative first task is often nutrition.
What you do and what is feasible for most people who are on here are not going to be the same. Doing anything at all is difficult if not impossible for many, doing something the right way is not going to happen for the vast majority. And, of course copper is not going to solve brook, uronema, or flukes.
wooden_reefer
New member
What is not so feasible? Cycling medium for QT is very easy. Even a newbie should do it well.
Copper is not going to solve brook, that is why stagewise and more comprehensive treatment for major diseases is desirable. For fish to go thru a long series of treatment, they need nutrition in the process.
Eradication of ich is far for the end. What happen and the condition of the fish after ich is also very important.
Disease control is a major part of keeping fish because a tank is pathogenically closed system, not only chemically closed. Skill development in disease control is necessary.
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