Coral & Anemone fragging - techniques
- Thread starter Anthony Calfo
- Start date
captbunzo
Premium Member
Down for me as well. Here is from the whois record:
Simmons, Jon
pyrojon@MEGANET.NET
17 Bridle Bridge Rd
Windham, NH 03087, US
781-979-9066
Simmons, Jon
pyrojon@MEGANET.NET
17 Bridle Bridge Rd
Windham, NH 03087, US
781-979-9066
kizanne
Member
speaking of planulae, I looking for some good pictures. I have some 'white dots' on my glass which aren't flatworms. Is there a site that would have some info on planulae size and what to look for also when the coral do a polyp bail out what do the polyps look like?
I too would be very interested in the RBTA split/cut info.
I too would be very interested in the RBTA split/cut info.
Ok so let's say you have a healthy carpet that's been in your caring hands for 5+years and your ready to make the split. What do you do? If I had to guess I would do as follows...
1) Isolate him from system (to avoid excess anemone stuff from circulating in system)
2) Determine best line to slice anemone in half (I'm assuming the actual slicing may take a few swipes to cut threw total thickness)
3) Place back in system in appropriate healing/growing location
4) Pray to God
Yes? No? More? Less? Once split and healed can the two be touching each other without damage occuring?
Greg
1) Isolate him from system (to avoid excess anemone stuff from circulating in system)
2) Determine best line to slice anemone in half (I'm assuming the actual slicing may take a few swipes to cut threw total thickness)
3) Place back in system in appropriate healing/growing location
4) Pray to God
Yes? No? More? Less? Once split and healed can the two be touching each other without damage occuring?
Greg
captbunzo
Premium Member
I would guess that your step #1 may actually be a bad idea. Isolating him from the system would end up putting him in a completely different environment - there is no way to match it all. That would probably stress him (her?) which is probably a bad thing to do right before you cut him in half.
Just a thought!
Just a thought!
Anthony Calfo
New member
Re: ANEMONE PROPAGATION
Paul is spot-on correct regarding any sort of long term move. But I think Kinerson is referring to simply taking the animal out to a bath/bucket for the propagation only... allowing the animal to purge its mucus, etc briefly before returning the halves to the display.
But yes... its true, the animal is to be conditioned and propagated in the same place essentially
And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time. To then cut such an animal in a display and forcing it to heal while at the same time suffering the water quality of a toxic soup with so many other cnidarians, is just bad husbandry and bad technique.
The anemone should already be in a dedicated tank. Then after some months of conditioning and establishment... a simple equal bilateral split through the mouth with a new razor blade or scalpel will do the trick.
Seperate the halves with a lateral move in the tank (or lower, but never into higher light) and insure very good water flow around the cut edges. Within minutes/hours you will see the cut edge cinching closed. And within weeks you will have two healed and fully formed anemones (waiting to be split again soon
)
Paul is spot-on correct regarding any sort of long term move. But I think Kinerson is referring to simply taking the animal out to a bath/bucket for the propagation only... allowing the animal to purge its mucus, etc briefly before returning the halves to the display.
But yes... its true, the animal is to be conditioned and propagated in the same place essentially
And I'm praying to God that this and any anemone is not kept in reef tanks with corals... a staggeringly unnatural mix and the reason in part why so many fare so poorly in time. To then cut such an animal in a display and forcing it to heal while at the same time suffering the water quality of a toxic soup with so many other cnidarians, is just bad husbandry and bad technique.
The anemone should already be in a dedicated tank. Then after some months of conditioning and establishment... a simple equal bilateral split through the mouth with a new razor blade or scalpel will do the trick.
Seperate the halves with a lateral move in the tank (or lower, but never into higher light) and insure very good water flow around the cut edges. Within minutes/hours you will see the cut edge cinching closed. And within weeks you will have two healed and fully formed anemones (waiting to be split again soon
)
causeofhim
New member
Are you serious?
Anthony Calfo
New member
causeofhim... you've never been to a reef. Clearly 
And after what is now approaching 20 years in the hobby for me, and seeing the track record of every animal you've ever seen in aquaria and then some... yes, I'm serious.
So many problems folks have with specific animals would be solved in an epiphany(!) if you could just make it to a reef and see the specific niches that some corals live in.
Until then... you'll just have to take the word of those of us that have
Trachyphyllia open brain corals on rocks? Yikes! Nope... a free living coral on soft substrates. No wonder they abrade, tumble or simply suffer attritition in time when placed on rocks in a reef aquarium. A very slow death for most
Fungiids... same as the above.
Catalaphyllia (elegant corals) placed on rocks, under bright halides in clear water reef tanks... quite unnatural for some (free living collected colonies with conical corallums). Give them muddy, grassy lagoons baby!
Some Nerites and Red-footed snails... always climbing to to the top of your tank? Drowning, my friends. Sigh. Intertidal beasts. And an easy mistake to avoid with any small amount of research on the animal before(!) being purchased.
Anemones, cucumarids, etc roaming the tank and never staying in place... thanks to inadequate or unnatural water flow. They are searching (and usually find another coral to sting or be stung by instead unless they just go straight for death by powerhead or overflow)
Acanthurus tangs pacing incessantly back and forth in your tank like they are seeing their reflection in the glass? Increase water flow (40-60X total in the tank) and don't be surprised if they stop. Surge and reef crest species.
Really... we should be surprised that so many creatures we keep in reef tanks adapt as well as they do to the staggeringly unnatural crowds on piles of rocks that too many folks call (garden mix) reef displays.
It's very disheartening for me to see advanced aquarists that should be well read enough to grow out of these mistakes (speaking generally here... not to anyone specific in this thread)
So much money invested... so much time invested... so many living organisms - treated like furniture at that point out of sheer ignorance (as in, 'not-knowing" yet still responsible).
Sigh... I'm bummed out now. I'm going to go scavenge some chocolate now and maybe listen to Metallica to sooth my nerves. I'll start with 'Fuel'
And after what is now approaching 20 years in the hobby for me, and seeing the track record of every animal you've ever seen in aquaria and then some... yes, I'm serious.
So many problems folks have with specific animals would be solved in an epiphany(!) if you could just make it to a reef and see the specific niches that some corals live in.
Until then... you'll just have to take the word of those of us that have
Trachyphyllia open brain corals on rocks? Yikes! Nope... a free living coral on soft substrates. No wonder they abrade, tumble or simply suffer attritition in time when placed on rocks in a reef aquarium. A very slow death for most
Fungiids... same as the above.
Catalaphyllia (elegant corals) placed on rocks, under bright halides in clear water reef tanks... quite unnatural for some (free living collected colonies with conical corallums). Give them muddy, grassy lagoons baby!
Some Nerites and Red-footed snails... always climbing to to the top of your tank? Drowning, my friends. Sigh. Intertidal beasts. And an easy mistake to avoid with any small amount of research on the animal before(!) being purchased.
Anemones, cucumarids, etc roaming the tank and never staying in place... thanks to inadequate or unnatural water flow. They are searching (and usually find another coral to sting or be stung by instead unless they just go straight for death by powerhead or overflow
)Acanthurus tangs pacing incessantly back and forth in your tank like they are seeing their reflection in the glass? Increase water flow (40-60X total in the tank) and don't be surprised if they stop. Surge and reef crest species.
Really... we should be surprised that so many creatures we keep in reef tanks adapt as well as they do to the staggeringly unnatural crowds on piles of rocks that too many folks call (garden mix) reef displays.
It's very disheartening for me to see advanced aquarists that should be well read enough to grow out of these mistakes
(speaking generally here... not to anyone specific in this thread)So much money invested... so much time invested... so many living organisms - treated like furniture at that point out of sheer ignorance (as in, 'not-knowing" yet still responsible).
Sigh... I'm bummed out now. I'm going to go scavenge some chocolate now and maybe listen to Metallica to sooth my nerves. I'll start with 'Fuel'
captbunzo
Premium Member
I think that there is perhaps an interesting balance to be found here. I suspect that if you came to my house and saw my 29G reef, there would at least be a couple of things on the "big time unnatural" chart that I am violating. I DO try, and am still somewhat of a newbie.
Anyhow, I THINK I had a point.
I think the best that most of us will end up doing will be to avoid most ends of the BAD spectrum and aim more and more (as we grow in the hobby) toward natural and more responsible husbandry. It can be tough to balance the desire to "experiment" around with different species with the responsibility to the creatures in which we are keeping.
I think also this may be clearer sometimes when compared to more terrestrial organisms. Let me try at a comparison.
Trying to get a chicken to live in a tree?
Ah, never mind on the examples, but the point was SUPPOSED to be that these things would seem rediculously stupid if we were talking about animals that we are more familiar with. I guess that means we use our ignorance as an excuse to pretty much do what we want to do anyway?
Ah, never mind. Maybe I need some chocolate and heavy metal now.....
Anyhow, I THINK I had a point.
I think the best that most of us will end up doing will be to avoid most ends of the BAD spectrum and aim more and more (as we grow in the hobby) toward natural and more responsible husbandry. It can be tough to balance the desire to "experiment" around with different species with the responsibility to the creatures in which we are keeping.
I think also this may be clearer sometimes when compared to more terrestrial organisms. Let me try at a comparison.
Trying to get a chicken to live in a tree?
Ah, never mind on the examples, but the point was SUPPOSED to be that these things would seem rediculously stupid if we were talking about animals that we are more familiar with. I guess that means we use our ignorance as an excuse to pretty much do what we want to do anyway?
Ah, never mind. Maybe I need some chocolate and heavy metal now.....
Anthony Calfo
New member
while my position may seem hardline, I assure you it is not. To define:
For animals with a natural (wild) lifespan of, for example, 20-30 years (as many large community fishes we keep have, such as Angels, Tangs, Serranids, etc) ... I'd be grateful to at least see them making it to ten years of age in aquaria. Longer would be nice. But there are great values and benefits to the use (sacrifice if you will) of such organisms even prematurely... education, inspiring young and older minds alike to greater empathy, global awareness of reef science issues, etc that really do pay great dividends on the species and all reef creatures for their use (captive keeping).
I recognize and treasure that dearly. I'd like to believe I'm living and practicing it by the mentoring work for other hobbyists that I do.
But what chides me is the very casual and flip nature that some hobbyists take by chalking up the lives of their creatures to "disposability" for the sake of selfish aesthetic preferences (or jusy plain laziness or frugality to buy or maintain proper systems, avoid crowding or unnatural mixes, etc).
With so many suitable and compatible species to be had in the trade... and so much(!) free and accurate information on natural settings and requirements for the animals we keep... is a little bit of discipline too much to ask?!? Whats so hard about that?
Carrying on with the example above of a 20-30 year fish living even just ten years... what of the fact that many marine fishes can live far beyond their average natural lifespan (records at the Nancy Aq in France... Shedd in Chi-town... SF, etc).
So are we being unreasonbale then to ask an aquarist to try to keep that same, say Tang for ten years when its potential lifespan is well over thirty? Clownfishes on record over 30 years... etc.
How about anemones and corals with no known senescence? The potential to live hundreds of years?
Really... my complaint here is against hobbyists that keep a coral or fish for 5 years or less (much less in too many cases) and call that success. Its not. And its shameful for anyone that also lays claims to regard the organisms we keep as anything more than a commodity.
This philosophy (anything akin) draws the line between conscientious aquaristrs and (literally) consumers.
I will not make apologies for anything less no matter how many people are keeping anemones in coral displays, Naso tangs in 55 gall tanks, etc
Tell yourself whatever you need to get you through the night... but its still wrong if you want to lay any claim to my brand of ethics or responsible aquarium keeping.
C'mon people... we HAVE to walk the walk!
If we do not responsibly police ourselves... someone else will do it for us... and your not going to like it (legislation).
Outside of the bubble I'll call the US hobby, some frightening legislation is being proposed (and some has passed, as in EU) restricting or banning the collection of animals that we in the US take very much for granted as they are cheaply available (example... bubble coral in the US - $30, grandfathered bubble corals in Spain that can no longer be imported - folks are turning down $800).
I don't think I'm asking for much here! Its reasonable to want the animals that you and I keep to live at least one third of their potential!
I'm asking you to help us to help ourselves protect and preserve our hobby by the sensible use of the living resources.
And putting a motile cnidarian (such as an anemone) in a tank full (crowded really) of sessile cnidarians is not sensible. If it was... there would not be so many threads on anemones moving about the tank, stinging and being stung... and wiping out entire reef systems from the decay or damage (clogging pumps or overflows). It's wasteful and easily avoided with the smallest amount of effort or discipline. The folks that will preach to you that its OK, with rare exception, have had their anemones less than 3 years. Statistically... those keepers will become a statistic in time if my experience answering tragic e-mails and posts on RC and WWM alone is any indication (notice my post count here... I've answered far more over at WWM I have some experience here. And some frustration at seeing slow progress from wasteful consumers).
Sigh... I'm gonna go and break out the big guns now. Yeah...
Neil Diamond's Greatest Hits
find a happy place
For animals with a natural (wild) lifespan of, for example, 20-30 years (as many large community fishes we keep have, such as Angels, Tangs, Serranids, etc) ... I'd be grateful to at least see them making it to ten years of age in aquaria. Longer would be nice. But there are great values and benefits to the use (sacrifice if you will) of such organisms even prematurely... education, inspiring young and older minds alike to greater empathy, global awareness of reef science issues, etc that really do pay great dividends on the species and all reef creatures for their use (captive keeping).
I recognize and treasure that dearly. I'd like to believe I'm living and practicing it by the mentoring work for other hobbyists that I do.
But what chides me is the very casual and flip nature that some hobbyists take by chalking up the lives of their creatures to "disposability" for the sake of selfish aesthetic preferences (or jusy plain laziness or frugality to buy or maintain proper systems, avoid crowding or unnatural mixes, etc).
With so many suitable and compatible species to be had in the trade... and so much(!) free and accurate information on natural settings and requirements for the animals we keep... is a little bit of discipline too much to ask?!? Whats so hard about that?
Carrying on with the example above of a 20-30 year fish living even just ten years... what of the fact that many marine fishes can live far beyond their average natural lifespan (records at the Nancy Aq in France... Shedd in Chi-town... SF, etc).
So are we being unreasonbale then to ask an aquarist to try to keep that same, say Tang for ten years when its potential lifespan is well over thirty? Clownfishes on record over 30 years... etc.
How about anemones and corals with no known senescence? The potential to live hundreds of years?
Really... my complaint here is against hobbyists that keep a coral or fish for 5 years or less (much less in too many cases) and call that success. Its not. And its shameful for anyone that also lays claims to regard the organisms we keep as anything more than a commodity.
This philosophy (anything akin) draws the line between conscientious aquaristrs and (literally) consumers.
I will not make apologies for anything less no matter how many people are keeping anemones in coral displays, Naso tangs in 55 gall tanks, etc
Tell yourself whatever you need to get you through the night... but its still wrong if you want to lay any claim to my brand of ethics or responsible aquarium keeping.
C'mon people... we HAVE to walk the walk!
If we do not responsibly police ourselves... someone else will do it for us... and your not going to like it (legislation).
Outside of the bubble I'll call the US hobby, some frightening legislation is being proposed (and some has passed, as in EU) restricting or banning the collection of animals that we in the US take very much for granted as they are cheaply available (example... bubble coral in the US - $30, grandfathered bubble corals in Spain that can no longer be imported - folks are turning down $800).
I don't think I'm asking for much here! Its reasonable to want the animals that you and I keep to live at least one third of their potential!
I'm asking you to help us to help ourselves protect and preserve our hobby by the sensible use of the living resources.
And putting a motile cnidarian (such as an anemone) in a tank full (crowded really) of sessile cnidarians is not sensible. If it was... there would not be so many threads on anemones moving about the tank, stinging and being stung... and wiping out entire reef systems from the decay or damage (clogging pumps or overflows). It's wasteful and easily avoided with the smallest amount of effort or discipline. The folks that will preach to you that its OK, with rare exception, have had their anemones less than 3 years. Statistically... those keepers will become a statistic in time if my experience answering tragic e-mails and posts on RC and WWM alone is any indication (notice my post count here... I've answered far more over at WWM
I have some experience here. And some frustration at seeing slow progress from wasteful consumers).Sigh... I'm gonna go and break out the big guns now. Yeah...
Neil Diamond's Greatest Hits
find a happy place
Last edited:
captbunzo
Premium Member
I apologize if I came across wrong in any manner, Anthony. I understand, respect, and agree with your stance on these things. And I appreciate the free, high quality education that you and many others provide in places such as this forum, etc, as well as the contributions you make in speaking engagements, etc.
Enjoy your happy place!
Enjoy your happy place!
Anthony Calfo
New member
heehe... no worries, Paul I'm eyeballs deep in a book edit today (this week... month, grrr)... so my ink quill is very sharp
A stickied thread like this is a good place for me to go off on rants with hope that some folks will ponder it now or in the future
I'm eyeballs deep in a book edit today (this week... month, grrr)... so my ink quill is very sharp A stickied thread like this is a good place for me to go off on rants with hope that some folks will ponder it now or in the future
Anthony Calfo
New member
mille grazie
NicoleC
New member
I'd like to see livestock dealers market by biotype, not arbitrary categories based on polyp type or fish shape.
For example, instead of the usual categories of:
tangs, blennies, gobies, etc.
SPS, LPS, softies
It would be:
Caribbean
South American
eastern Indo-Pacific
western Indo-Pacific
Indian Ocean
Red Sea
etc.
With subcategories of:
intertidal
atoll
rocky reef
lagoonal
etc.
But truth be told, most dealers can't tell you where their livestock was collected. But they won't insist on finding out until WE do.
For example, instead of the usual categories of:
tangs, blennies, gobies, etc.
SPS, LPS, softies
It would be:
Caribbean
South American
eastern Indo-Pacific
western Indo-Pacific
Indian Ocean
Red Sea
etc.
With subcategories of:
intertidal
atoll
rocky reef
lagoonal
etc.
But truth be told, most dealers can't tell you where their livestock was collected. But they won't insist on finding out until WE do.
Anthony Calfo
New member
spot on Nicole!
It would be so easy for them to find out this information... they talk to their collectors on the phone weekly or more often... the names on these lists are indeed arbitrary and could just as easily be listed as "reef crest Acanthurus" "mud flat Elegant" or "rubble zone Coral Beauty"
But the truth of the matter instead is that not enough consumers are bugging their LFS to bug their wholesalers, etc for this information!
So what we get instead is "Super-matallic tasty purple people eating hair-growing dome coral!"
Really... for those of you that have not had the pleasure of reading tranship lists... the names are every bit as hilarious as the ridiculous names you see on trendy corals in the retail sectors.
Yet the collectors in the islands have VERY specific places where they go to collect very specific animals. It's not like all fishes and corals we keep in our dreadful little hodg-podge tanks () all come from all areas of all reefs in the, say, Indo-Pacific. Hardly so.
In so many cases... fishes like Flame Hawks from Tonga or Fiji come from only one side of one island in a very specific zone.
To report that information with a descriptive moniker wold surely be easier (less brain cells) than making up creative names, no?
Great point, again Nicole
It would be so easy for them to find out this information... they talk to their collectors on the phone weekly or more often... the names on these lists are indeed arbitrary and could just as easily be listed as "reef crest Acanthurus" "mud flat Elegant" or "rubble zone Coral Beauty"
But the truth of the matter instead is that not enough consumers are bugging their LFS to bug their wholesalers, etc for this information!
So what we get instead is "Super-matallic tasty purple people eating hair-growing dome coral!"
Really... for those of you that have not had the pleasure of reading tranship lists... the names are every bit as hilarious as the ridiculous names you see on trendy corals in the retail sectors.
Yet the collectors in the islands have VERY specific places where they go to collect very specific animals. It's not like all fishes and corals we keep in our dreadful little hodg-podge tanks (
) all come from all areas of all reefs in the, say, Indo-Pacific. Hardly so.In so many cases... fishes like Flame Hawks from Tonga or Fiji come from only one side of one island in a very specific zone.
To report that information with a descriptive moniker wold surely be easier (less brain cells) than making up creative names, no?
Great point, again Nicole
causeofhim
New member
Actually, I have dove around the world and seen many reefs. I realize that many of our reef do not mimic the natural reefs. To do so would be almost impossible.Anthony Calfo said:causeofhim... you've never been to a reef. Clearly
What I was asking originally was about your comment that you made . .
I've just never heard anyone before state that keeping an anemone in tank with other cnidarians was bad husbandry and bad technique.Anthony Calfo said:
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