Coral Beauty... Head Wounds?

spockthepuffer

New member
I've had my coral beauty for around 6months. We got her from Petco...

She always had some markings on her head and in the first month we had her they seemed to enlarge... They haven't gotten worse since then but I figured I would ask you all if there was anything I could do to make the wounds heal... They are right by her eye and are ugly.

arielholedl6.jpg


(picture is giant so you can see the head up close...)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=11727122#post11727122 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Packersfan21
dunno wat it is but i wouldn't get any fish from Petco.

Wow thanks for the great advice...

I don't have a quarantine tank either so I guess I will just have to deal with her head looking like that. Shes survived for 6 months so I guess she isn't dying.
 
Hmmm,

This is clearly Head and Lateral Line Erosion. You can run a search here on "HLLE" but be forewarned, you will have to shift through a lot of garbage to get any decent information on it.
Concentrate by searching on "HLLE Carbon" and maybe "HLLE water quality" to come up with some decent advice. Avoid "stray voltage" "copper" and "vitamin C" as this will only lead you to spurious, unsubstantiated information

Good Luck!

Jay
 
I haven't found anything that truly substantiates activated carbon either.

It's shruggable, but I do agree with Jay that it sure sounds like HLLE. The causes bring up a lot of "maybes". Water quality is a good idea for all sorts of health reasons, same with diet. You may want to soak your food with a vitamin supplement. Most HLLE I've seen is because the owner is not feeding properly. I've seen where a few have blamed stray voltage as a possibility.

You can check out for starters, but there is plenty on the Web to give you a few ideas:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.php
 
Well she gets fed frozen enriched brine shirmp, frozen mysis, marine pellets formula 1 and 2 and I put one of those clips in the tank with some seaweed stuff probably once a week.

The water params are 0 for ammonia and nitrite and nitrates are around 15.

I do use carbon in my filters but when I was looking that I found mixed opinions and one said that fish will hlle aren't even in tanks with carbon.

I also read that even though it might not be affecting her yet it will make her die sooner so I'm not sure what to do. I will try the vitamins, I'm going to get some from dr fosters and smith since I have to order a few other things anyways.
 
Right...if you look at all of the possibilities, it is all hit or miss.
Selcon is good for a supplement but make sure you refrigerate after opening to keep the oils from going rancid (it's pretty much a decent rule of thumb fr anything with vitamins and fatty acids).
 
The carbon connection with HLLE has been fully substantiated - it is only the mechanism, and which types of carbons are involved that remains unknown.
It is not the only cause of this syndrome, so cases that develop in the absence of carbon are not unexpected. Additonally, foam fractionators remove carbon fines, so carbon use with them rarely causes problems.
We know that it is NOT an absorbtion issue as was once thought - fully depleted carbon, ground into fines will start HLLE in suceptable fish.

Jay

p.s. - Apparently the Reef Central search engine does not handle multiple search terms very well. Ignore my previous advice and run a Google search for HLLE Hemdal
 
rlcline76,

That's why I suggested the Google search - the material itself isn't on the web, but the article and book it is in are mentioned, and discussed. It's here on RC somewhere, already, but the search feature is so difficult to use, I couldn't find it, so I'll post it again:

This is an excerpt from the section of my book, "Advanced Marine Aquarium Techniques" that describes this issue. Now remember, just because I wrote it myself does not make it any less valid, this has material been fully reviewed and edited. Unlike here on RC, when you write a book or magazine article on a topic, there is somebody watching over your work to ensure accuracy<grin>.

Copyright 2006 TFH Publications
... Early on, carbon was implicated as a cause of HLLE but the mechanism proposed was that the carbon removed some compound that was needed by the fish, and its removal then precipitated the onset of the HLLE. In some of these recent public aquarium cases, the carbon in question was old, or used in a very small quantity so it was not conceivable that the carbon had substantially removed any compounds. The commonality here seems to be the production of carbon dust through mechanical abrasion inside the filter system. One theory is that the carbon dust enters the open lateral line pores, causing irritation and lesions. This would also explain why carbon-induced HLLE would not be commonly seen in typical reef aquaria; foam fractionators and filter feeding invertebrates are both well known for their ability to remove carbon fines from an aquarium’s water. It would also account for cases where some people use carbon in their aquariums with no apparent problem â€"œ there seems to be a huge variation between forms of carbon in terms of what types will instigate HLLE lesions and what types will not. Small-grained, dusty carbons seem to be the worst, while large granule or pellet forms seem to be less of a problem. It may turn out that further study will show that carbon derived from one carbon source over another may come into play.
In one case that demonstrates this syndrome very clearly, a pair of juvenile Australian lungfish were quarantined for over six weeks and then moved into an exhibit tank. They showed no signs of any problems. After a month or so, some driftwood decorations had caused yellowing of the water, so activated carbon was added to the power filter. The particles were small enough that they escaped the carbon container and were injected into the water. Within a few weeks, the lungfish developed unmistakable HLLE lesions. As the condition worsened, it was decided to remove the carbon from the filter and change all of the substrate (as it was contaminated with carbon dust). Within four weeks of removing the carbon, the HLLE lesions were seen to begin shrinking and within two months, the lesions were completely healed. Since these fish were actively growing, young fish and the lesions were noticed almost immediately, the problem was correctable. In aquariums where the fish are mature, the problem was not identified early enough, or where the carbon fines could not be 100% removed, it is unlikely that the aquarist will be able to resolve this problem.
While carbon dust in water may not be the sole cause of HLLE, it is most certainly one cause, one that the aquarist can take steps to avoid. At one public aquarium, once carbon use was curtailed, and all of the substrate was changed in problem aquariums, no new cases of HLLE have developed in the over 3000 fish in the collection for over three years.


Jay
 
There is an issue that needs to be watched in every case where people have "cured" HLLE: was the fish moved to a new tank?
Early on, with so much focus on nutritional causes, people didn't give it a second thought to take a study fish with HLLE, move it to a new tank and then change its diet to try and affect a cure. Lo and behold, the fish was often cured by adding vitamin C to its diet (or Selco, or B12, etc.).
Since people didn't suspect environmental issues, moving the fish during their study did not, in their minds, disrupt the scientific method. Actually, we've been able to instigate HLLE and then have it go into remission simply by moving fish in and out of tanks with carbon dust in them - keeping their diet exactly the same.
I once had a system that was just a 300 gallon concrete vat with a garbage can filter on it. Fish in that tank NEVER developed HLLE. In fact, I would routinely move slightly affected fish into that tank and see them cured within a month or two. This went on for some time - then suddenly, it went down the tubes - fish moved to that tank stopped going into remission, fish without symptoms suddenly developed HLLE, etc. I peeked inside the garbage can filter and saw that one of my aquarists had added a bag of carbon. Now, this is a perfectly acceptable husbandry technique, but the tank had to be completely stripped and set back up in order to re-gain its ability NOT to develop HLLE.

Oh yeah, and regarding copper as a cause of HLLE - just think, how many copper treatments are concluded with the standard, "partial water change and fresh carbon" - grin.

I can't speak to the other causes of HLLE, I know there are some, but I've never been able to personally demonstrate them to my own satisfaction (ESPECIALLY the old saw about stray voltage).


Jay
 
Well, really, I higly doubt you will find anyone out there that would not say water quality and nutrition is a must for any scenario. Vitamin C might not be the only vitamin that comes into play, I've seen A and maybe even D as possible problem. There was a study done in 2006 on surgeonfish (that one is not online) experimenting with 3 different types of food. They found that the food (flake) had plenty of vitamin C, but lacked a decent amount of Vitamin A. The fish fed flake exclusively got HLLE with receding fins, quite possible because in some fashion vitamin A helps with cartilage growth. (Probably more than shockthepuffer wanted to know...but still).
It gives us something to think about. If the hobbyist goes down the laundry list of possible causes, finds that carbon could be a cause, then they can choose to remove the carbon for a certain length of time, or look at their grain size and make a switch to something larger in granule size...as suggested by the exerpt you provided, Jay.
Stray voltage...hobbyists go back and forth on that one.
 
I got a better picture of ariel tonight so I figured I would post it up here so you all could get a better look.

Its pretty nasty looking...

arielholegoodgz8.jpg
 
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