Coral / QT & Ich?

[yachtdr22]

TTM does not address the issue of supporting ALL your fish for 12 weeks for the DT to fallow. When ich has already broken out in DT, TTM is generally not useful.

You need to support all you fish for 12 weeks. Robustly cycled medium for this purpose is both often sufficient and necessary.

If a drug that harms nitrification does not have to be used, then it is always sufficient and necessary. There is no vague concept of a "mature tank" and one has to stock slowly, only a tank having robustly cycled medium; the greatest possible bioload will still be supported at once after that.

Cycling robustly to support 10-20 times the greatest possible bioload in QT is what I do routinely and by nature, automatically. I am not a fan of TTM as the primary method against ich.

My Apologies Wooden, what are you talking about?

My 375 had Ich. I was going to replace the glass tank as it was gouged from MFG and had the new glass standing by.
I removed all swimmers 7/7/14
all swimmers were separated into 75Gal , 55Gal & 55Gal. All swimmers went through PraziPro and Cupramine (.5 mg/l) for 6 weeks then 5 weeks observation.
@ 9 weeks fallow, I removed all sub straight & rock, reused all but 50gal of water. system running for 2 weeks all swimmers back in and happy.

The TTM in question is regarding NEW livestock.

Since 10 weeks of observation on a supposed "CLEAN" Fish is NOT an indication of "Ich Free".. I am going to go with the TTM and observation. I can already see 2 spots on the lamrick angle. all others are fine.

It would seem that Ich behaves kinda like a cold. Keep yourself healthy, you wont get sick... stress yourself out, dont take care.. your down....
If the TTM is stressful.. and IT IS! then if there is Ich present.. it should reveal its self. which it looks like it has.
It will be interesting to watch the spots drop off the lamrick.

does this make a little better sense?

Drew

 

[wooden_reefer]

My Apologies Wooden, what are you talking about?

My 375 had Ich. I was going to replace the glass tank as it was gouged from MFG and had the new glass standing by.
I removed all swimmers 7/7/14
all swimmers were separated into 75Gal , 55Gal & 55Gal. All swimmers went through PraziPro and Cupramine (.5 mg/l) for 6 weeks then 5 weeks observation.
@ 9 weeks fallow, I removed all sub straight & rock, reused all but 50gal of water. system running for 2 weeks all swimmers back in and happy.

The TTM in question is regarding NEW livestock.

Since 10 weeks of observation on a supposed "CLEAN" Fish is NOT an indication of "Ich Free".. I am going to go with the TTM and observation. I can already see 2 spots on the lamrick angle. all others are fine.

It would seem that Ich behaves kinda like a cold. Keep yourself healthy, you wont get sick... stress yourself out, dont take care.. your down....
If the TTM is stressful.. and IT IS! then if there is Ich present.. it should reveal its self. which it looks like it has.
It will be interesting to watch the spots drop off the lamrick.

does this make a little better sense?

Drew

Suppose you succeed in eradicating ich with TTM in 12 days, what are you going to do if your dt has ich?

You have to support all your fish for the 10 additional weeks when the dt stays fallow.

I suggest that once you have gone thru the process of cycling robustly medium to support all you fish in qt, Knowing what and why you are doing, I think you would come to realize how inefficiency and labor intensive TTM is for you and your fish. All these disadvantages for one advantage of not using drug to treat only one disease of ich.

 

[wooden_reefer]

Ich is not a cold

A cold is overcome when the patient develops antibodies against it.

In the ocean, a fish does not have to overcome ich because ich leave the fish as a part of its lifecycle. Ich is therefore a disease of the five walls that make the tank, the absence of dilution of the ocean.

I suggest that the aquarist completely disregard the idea of enhancing immunity or reducing stress. These are non factors as far as ich is concerned.

 

[Cujo13]

Yes, there is a such thing as an Ich-free tank. If you do the proper QT protocol on everything. This includes fish, coral, live rock, macro algae, CUC, etc, etc, etc.

How do you know? You don't really, except for the day you see your fish flashing and/or start seeing spots. Otherwise, you are just under the assumption that it is Ich-free. I am in that state. There were things I skimped on early on in my new tank's life, such as only running fallow for 30 days instead of 72+. But, so far so good for me (knocking on wood right now...).

Observation is the least effective of all QT methods. In order of effectiveness, IMO, it is Tank Transfer Method (near 100% effective), then Copper, then Hypo, then Observation.

I am assuming 30 days observation after TTM for ich, is this correct?

 

[Spar]

I personally only do 14 days after TTM, but the more the better.

 

[Cujo13]

Yes, there is a such thing as an Ich-free tank. If you do the proper QT protocol on everything. This includes fish, coral, live rock, macro algae, CUC, etc, etc, etc.

How do you know? You don't really, except for the day you see your fish flashing and/or start seeing spots. Otherwise, you are just under the assumption that it is Ich-free. I am in that state. There were things I skimped on early on in my new tank's life, such as only running fallow for 30 days instead of 72+. But, so far so good for me (knocking on wood right now...).

Observation is the least effective of all QT methods. In order of effectiveness, IMO, it is Tank Transfer Method (near 100% effective), then Copper, then Hypo, then Observation.

I personally only do 14 days after TTM, but the more the better.

Thanks Spar appreciate it. Anxious to start putting the fish back in but super
paranoid.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I personally only do 14 days after TTM, but the more the better.

If ich already has broken out in dt, returning fish to dt after 14 days of TTM does little, except prevent death of fish for a while.

 

[yachtdr22]

Even if the DT is not already infested with ich, TTM can only be regarded as an adjunct method, not the main method.

If a fish obviously cannot take copper, TTM should then be method considered.

Moving fish around is often not a good idea because it disrupts their adaptation (can also lead to external bacterial infection), which is one of two broad considerations for QT (the other being disease treatment, many diseases not just ich)

At least one should address the issue of ammonia in TTM. It is feasible to remove ammonia in TTM without WC or chemicals, but such is not often mentioned.

Last, it is precisely because ich can break out in DT that the skill to do TTM is far less valuable.

After one has successfully fought against ich and eradicated ich in DT, I believe one would not like TTM much. Once the skill to methodically with little work eradicate ich is acquired, TTM will be much less attractive to an aquarist.

If it is said to be true that a Tank Fallow for 12 weeks WILL have NO Ich.
And if it is True that Cupramine Dosed .5 mg/L for 4 weeks (2 weeks is recommended duration) will kill Ich on the swimmers, then I SHOULD be able to claim a Ich Free Tank....

Now, I want to add new swimmers, Inverts and new corals.
What procedure would you recommend to insure the system stays clean?

 

[yachtdr22]

I am assuming 30 days observation after TTM for ich, is this correct?

Im observing for 30...
BUT... observation for 30 days does not guarantee a clean fish!!!

 

[wooden_reefer]

If it is said to be true that a Tank Fallow for 12 weeks WILL have NO Ich.
And if it is True that Cupramine Dosed .5 mg/L for 4 weeks (2 weeks is recommended duration) will kill Ich on the swimmers, then I SHOULD be able to claim a Ich Free Tank....

Now, I want to add new swimmers, Inverts and new corals.
What procedure would you recommend to insure the system stays clean?

Yes, fallow period means if there is NO fish (any fish looking infested or not), then ich will die off, gone none left. I do 12 weeks but some say ten weeks.

Active treatment in qt needed to break the ich cycle with copper varies and is debatable, some say six weeks is ok. I don't know but four weeks is too short. I use straight uncheleted copper for 12 weeks and have not had ich for over 30 years.

The reasons I don't like TTM is due to an accumulation of many disadvantages over the only advantage of no drug used and less time.

Qt is not about ich alone. Qt is meant to be lengthy for many reasons.

Qt is to allow fish to regain strength with the best nutrition when they most need it. Qt is to allow treatment against many diseases like internal parasites via medicated food, fluke, bacterial infection.

It is natural to take many weeks not so
much for ich alone.

The reason I do not shun lengthy qt is mostly that I need to do little during all the weeks. The key is very robustly cycled medium and I am sure the effective use of uv against bacterial infection (useless Against ich).

 

[Cujo13]

Im observing for 30...
BUT... observation for 30 days does not guarantee a clean fish!!!

IMO signs of the vast majority of ich strains will show up within 30 days of observation after TTM. The strain I had in the DT was over turning about every 2 and a half weeks. My tank has been fallow for over 12 weeks and I am just making sure I performed the TT correctly. I have 7 fish and because I have a couple extra tanks laying around I was able to do the tank transfer a few fish at a time. The basement kind of looks like pet shop right now. But in looking back the time went fast. I hope it goes well for you. None of my fish are showing any signs of ich after the TTM. One or two at a time is a lot easier than doing the whole tank full of fish at once. Best of luck for you.

 

[Spar]

If ich already has broken out in dt, returning fish to dt after 14 days of TTM does little, except prevent death of fish for a while.

Correct, you will still need to leave your DT fallow for 72+ days to ensure Ich is eradicated in there as well.

 

[wooden_reefer]

IMO signs of the vast majority of ich strains will show up within 30 days of observation after TTM. The strain I had in the DT was over turning about every 2 and a half weeks. My tank has been fallow for over 12 weeks and I am just making sure I performed the TT correctly. I have 7 fish and because I have a couple extra tanks laying around I was able to do the tank transfer a few fish at a time. The basement kind of looks like pet shop right now. But in looking back the time went fast. I hope it goes well for you. None of my fish are showing any signs of ich after the TTM. One or two at a time is a lot easier than doing the whole tank full of fish at once. Best of luck for you.

I make no more observation after 12 weeks of active treatment, sometimes longer but no more observation.

I then maintain highly active and enough nitrification bacteria, that is robustly cycled medium, to support All fish for the next six months after the addition of the last livestock in DT. All I have to do is to ghost feed the bacteria in QT about biweekly for six months. This is my cheap insurance policy. I can repeat eradication if it fails; never failed so far.

So if you need observation after TTM for 30 days, then you should have well cycled medium to support the fish for 30 days.

If you have to support your fish with well-cycled medium for 30 days, what extra work is needed to support fish for 72 days? Pretty much the same effort, 30 days vs 72 days. You don't want or need WC for 30 or 72 days.

The truth is that cycling robustly for QT is extremely easy, as easy as one single WC for most people, easier than one single WC to me as I do this routinely. One only needs to wait, nothing wrong with waiting a few weeks for easy operations during QT.

An ich free tank is more in the rigor in procedure than observation. The policy of eradication also prevails over any observation at the beginning. As far as ich is concerned, what matter much more is what the aquarist has done than what the aquarist observes.

 

[Cujo13]

I make no more observation after 12 weeks of active treatment, sometimes longer but no more observation.

I then maintain highly active and enough nitrification bacteria, that is robustly cycled medium, to support All fish for the next six months after the addition of the last livestock in DT. All I have to do is to ghost feed the bacteria in QT about biweekly for six months. This is my cheap insurance policy. I can repeat eradication if it fails; never failed so far.

So if you need observation after TTM for 30 days, then you should have well cycled medium to support the fish for 30 days.

If you have to support your fish with well-cycled medium for 30 days, what extra work is needed to support fish for 72 days? Pretty much the same effort, 30 days vs 72 days. You don't want or need WC for 30 or 72 days.

The truth is that cycling robustly for QT is extremely easy, as easy as one single WC for most people, easier than one single WC to me as I do this routinely. One only needs to wait, nothing wrong with waiting a few weeks for easy operations during QT.

An ich free tank is more in the rigor in procedure than observation. The policy of eradication also prevails over any observation at the beginning. As far as ich is concerned, what matter much more is what the aquarist has done than what the aquarist observes.

What I have done is tank transfer. What I use for QT for 30 or 72 days is a cycled QT tank. I prefer not to subject my fish to any chemical if not needed.

 

[wooden_reefer]

What I have done is tank transfer. What I use for QT for 30 or 72 days is a cycled QT tank. I prefer not to subject my fish to any chemical if not needed.

If you bother to cycle the QT tank very well, why do you do TTM? Your answer is no need to use drug. Fair enough, but that is just one advantage, though for SOME fish this can be the decisive advantage.

But for most other fish, the disadvantages of TTM are numerous and outweigh the single advantage of not needing drug.

TTM disrupts adaptation of fish at the moment they most need it. It also interferes with drug treatment via food. When a fish still eats very well is the time to treat internal parasites. See the numerous "fish don't eat anymore" SOS posts.

TTM handles fish and can create breaks in the skin and fins and allows entry of pathogenic bacteria

TTM is a lot of work.

TTM does not help the aquarist develop the skills to combat ich infestation in DT if it were to happen.

Observation for ich does not do much; at any time infestation can be too low to be observed.

It is better to do the most and then be prepared to combat failure if it ever happens.

A QT cycled may not handle all the fish at once; one needs to be prepared to support all the fish at once and allow DT to fallow if ich broke out in DT.

 

[Cujo13]

If you bother to cycle the QT tank very well, why do you do TTM? Your answer is no need to use drug. Fair enough, but that is just one advantage, though for SOME fish this can be the decisive advantage.

But for most other fish, the disadvantages of TTM are numerous and outweigh the single advantage of not needing drug.

TTM disrupts adaptation of fish at the moment they most need it. It also interferes with drug treatment via food. When a fish still eats very well is the time to treat internal parasites. See the numerous "fish don't eat anymore" SOS posts.

TTM handles fish and can create breaks in the skin and fins and allows entry of pathogenic bacteria

TTM is a lot of work.

TTM does not help the aquarist develop the skills to combat ich infestation in DT if it were to happen.

Observation for ich does not do much; at any time infestation can be too low to be observed.

It is better to do the most and then be prepared to combat failure if it ever happens.

A QT cycled may not handle all the fish at once; one needs to be prepared to support all the fish at once and allow DT to fallow if ich broke out in DT.

Clearly we have different views. TTM for me is easy. Cheers. Cujo13

 

[wooden_reefer]

Clearly we have different views. TTM for me is easy. Cheers. Cujo13

What motivates you to observe for ich for 30 days after TTM?

Do you think that after 30 days of light undetectable infestation, the chance of heavy ich infestation any time in the second month is low?

The lifecycle of ich is such that observable infestation not in the first month after eradication attempt but in the second month is quite possible. It is a matter of chance that is not very low.

 

[wooden_reefer]

I would say that after several months of no control against ich, in a tank with species that are highly vulnerable, if there is no sign of ich, then ich likely has died out.

One month is not enough to observe.

As far as ich is concerned, there is not much to observe as observation relates to treatment. It is a matter of rigor of the procedure.

TTM has to be much more work than doing nothing much besides general care for fish in a tank and waiting patiently for long period, and treating other disease via medicated food and allowing fish to adapt.

 

[Deinonych]

Clearly we have different views. TTM for me is easy. Cheers. Cujo13

+1

Easy and foolproof.

 

[yachtdr22]

If you bother to cycle the QT tank very well, why do you do TTM? Your answer is no need to use drug. Fair enough, but that is just one advantage, though for SOME fish this can be the decisive advantage.

But for most other fish, the disadvantages of TTM are numerous and outweigh the single advantage of not needing drug.

TTM disrupts adaptation of fish at the moment they most need it. It also interferes with drug treatment via food. When a fish still eats very well is the time to treat internal parasites. See the numerous "fish don't eat anymore" SOS posts.

TTM handles fish and can create breaks in the skin and fins and allows entry of pathogenic bacteria

TTM is a lot of work.

TTM does not help the aquarist develop the skills to combat ich infestation in DT if it were to happen.

Observation for ich does not do much; at any time infestation can be too low to be observed.

It is better to do the most and then be prepared to combat failure if it ever happens.

A QT cycled may not handle all the fish at once; one needs to be prepared to support all the fish at once and allow DT to fallow if ich broke out in DT.

Thanks for your input.
I can appreciate your point of view, mine is just a bit different.