Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

[Reefski's]

http://cdn-3-service.phanfare.com/i..._Web_3/0_0_663aab606c54c163fd20d0a9ede745d8_1

i assume the black strainer is the CL intake. what is the flow through the intake supposed to be? what ever it is is a lot of water through a small screen. this will soon stop sucking and become clogged. i think you need a lot more surface area of intake screen. it is also in an area that will not be easy to work on once the tank is filled with rock.

i forget, what are the plans for sand depth in the tank?

the outflow still has the same restriction i criticized many pages ago. you have reduced the pipe to what looks like a 1" pipe before the four way split which will reduce the flow to what can flow through a 1" pipe. it doesn't matter that it splits into a four way, the flow has already been reduced. think stepping on a garden hose.
http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-4-ways-side-outlet-Ts

it's all about the flow/bandwidth. don't limit it with small pipes and surface area for strainers.


Carl

 

[mr.wilson]

http://cdn-3-service.phanfare.com/i..._Web_3/0_0_663aab606c54c163fd20d0a9ede745d8_1

i assume the black strainer is the CL intake. what is the flow through the intake supposed to be? what ever it is is a lot of water through a small screen. this will soon stop sucking and become clogged. i think you need a lot more surface area of intake screen. it is also in an area that will not be easy to work on once the tank is filled with rock.

i forget, what are the plans for sand depth in the tank?

the outflow still has the same restriction i criticized many pages ago. you have reduced the pipe to what looks like a 1" pipe before the four way split which will reduce the flow to what can flow through a 1" pipe. it doesn't matter that it splits into a four way, the flow has already been reduced. think stepping on a garden hose.
http://www.flexpvc.com/cart/agora.cgi?product=PVC-4-ways-side-outlet-Ts

it's all about the flow/bandwidth. don't limit it with small pipes and surface area for strainers.


Carl

What he said.

 

[Troy McClure]

I can't believe the tank is finally wet!!! Sounds like the fun is just beginning. Don't be too disheartened if everything doesn't happen exactly as planned, even with the best advice ever going in to a single tank build, it's always going to be expected that there is going to be some trial and error, just adds to the learning experience! (Well for me at least, hopefully for you as well).
Thanks to everyone contributing to this build thread, this thread is answering a lot of the questions that I now don't need to ask for my planned large tank build (one day).

Ben

 

[shannonpayne86]

Stunning Peter, Truly STunning, I wish you all the best with the aquascape mate. Kepp the pics coming.

 

[SaraB]

The newest trend in aquarium pumps is modified powerheads such as Laguna Maxflow (not to be confused with Flomax urinary tract medication), Red Dragon, ATB Flow Star (still not Flomax), and the yet to be released Vertex Stratus (not to be confused with the Dodge Stratus) brushless DC pump.

LOL - Someone is sure witty at 1AM

 

[Rizup]

What he said.

I pretty much agree with Reefski's as well. It appears as though the bulkheads are 1.5". Unless you are using a pressure rated pump that only requires 1" in and out (and will use much more energy with less flow output), I think you will be much better off not reducing the pipe before the exits. Instead of the 1" Tee that is used, I would get rid of the reducer on the bulkhead and go with a 1.5" Tee and then reduce/tee to the 1" at each end. That gives you 1.5" at the bulkhead split into 2 - 1.5" from the Tee and split into 2 - 1" at each end. Hopefully that makes sense.

As for the intake size, if you are using multiple intakes per pump I don't really see a problem with the size. But I also agree that depending on what you plan to do for substrate, there is a possibility of sucking sand into the intakes. Hopefully this won't prove to be an issue.

 

[mr.wilson]

LOL - Someone is sure witty at 1AM

Not witty, just easily confused

 

[Mahu]

Peter, Tank looks great, hope you can get the pump issues resolved. BTW are you connected to Mandalay Ent.?
Just curious.

Mike

 

[nineball]

Peter, Tank looks great, hope you can get the pump issues resolved. BTW are you connected to Mandalay Ent.?
Just curious.

Mike

No Mahu I am not but after this experience I just might be by default........

Peter

 

[nineball]

Peter is it possible the pump has air in the pump. I have seen pumps have a slight amount of air and cause them to pump at a reduced rate. is there an air bleed on the pump housing or on the outlet right at the pump. Try bleeding the air.

Chris

Thanks Chris.........I think we have done it thoroughly and ruled out air as a factor. I am still very suspicious but aparantly this has been ruled out.

Peter

 

[gig]

woohoo! water! hope you had a good Canada day peter....looking forward to my day of this monday

 

[mr.wilson]

The problem is that vendor don't make high flow pump for saltwater.

For a tank up to 200 gallons I would use one of the following two choices for a return pump.
Poseidon P3
850 GPH @ 140 watts = 6 watts/gal
28' max head pressure
http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=18217&cat=1223&page=1

ATB Flow Star 1500/Laguna Max-flo
1500 GPH @ 90 watts = 16.7 watts/gal
13.4' max head pressure
http://www.atbskimmers.com/products/inventory.php?category=Circulation Pumps
http://www.lagunaponds.com/lagunaeng/maxflopumps/maxflo1500.php?link=141

For a return pump for a tank over 200 gallons I would use...

ATK MP 10062
2642 GPH @ 140 watts = 18.9 watts/gal
20.3' max head pressure
http://www.aquaristikshop.com/cgi-b..._e&userid=2ymmQ8At2Er1r6HBopZGErOKcGtZftTH5QT

ATK MP 200110
5283 GPH @ 500 watts = 10.6 watts/gal
42.7'
http://www.aquaristikshop.com/cgi-b..._e&userid=QnZ0Oa4KUMdGvrxci1NBIgg9KykHEYd7Qfv

ATB Flow Star 4200
4200 GPH @ 145 watts = 29 watts/gal
? head
http://www.atbskimmers.com/products/inventory.php?category=Circulation Pumps

Current developments (wait... I should TM that)...
Vertex Stratus, Red Dragon 2 &3,
These pumps are reported to push up to 6600 GPH @ 250 watts = 26.4 watts/gal
32.8' max head pressure
* The benefit of these pumps is they are variable speed and fully controllable with an aquarium controller. The Vertex brushless DC pump will mesh well with their Cerebra touch screen controller (with apps). Even Sequence has a DC version of their Dart pump. The other benefit of DC is it hooks up easily to solar or wind power (if not for regular use, certainly for back-up marine battery, windmill or solar panel).

 

[mr.wilson]

No Mahu I am not but after this experience I just might be by default........

Peter

... or at least Art Vandelay - Vandelay Industries (importer/exporter).

 

[mr.wilson]

Thanks Chris.........I think we have done it thoroughly and ruled out air as a factor. I am still very suspicious but aparantly this has been ruled out.

Peter

Did you try a bench test (dry & wet)?

3/4 HP spa pumps are a dime a dozen. Silicone carbide seals used to be exotic but with the popularity of saltwater pools that has changed. You also have the option of swapping out the seals from the existing pump and putting them in a new one from a hardware store or LFS. Take one off of your hot tub or pool to at least isolate the problem.

There are a few tricks to bleeding the air out of the system. The pump itself should have a bleed screw. Loosen off the screw and run the pump until the air no longer comes out. Open all of the valves and run a shortcut effluent (out) line to rule out blockage and help air escape. Hook a garden hose up to the pump intake and force water (& air) through the pumps volute and out the effluent. Turn on the pump as you do this and it should kick in.

kirk always had a way of getting Scotty to try one last time even after his "I've givn'r all she's got Captain!".

These things happen. I had a pump I was ready to throw through a wall one time. After taking it off, bench testing, and re-installing 5 times (urgh!) it turned out I had somehow dropped a 3/4" coupling into a 1" tee where the pump connected. It was probably stuck in there in my parts box. The grey on grey colour and my PVC glue high made it invisible. It allowed the water to flow through the tee, but just a trickle into/out of the pump. I didn't find it until I was hacking the plumbing apart to start from scratch. In the end I cooled down when I saw it was a cheap fix and all over. The moral of the story, isolate the problem.

 

[Rizup]

Mr. Wilson,

I am assuming with the pump specs you listed, you meant gallons per watt instead

By the way, glad to hear you enjoyed ShoTank. It's my favorite store in Chicagoland and I have pretty much hit them all. Matt is a great guy and very knowledgeable and helpful. Makes it even better that he is closer than the rest, about 20 minutes

 

[Rizup]

I would also suggest dry running the pump, but not for more than a few seconds. Shouldn't the pump self prime considering it is lower than the inlets or am I missing something? Sounds like some kind of a blockage in the plumbing to me. Or just too much restriction in the inlet or outlets. Silly thought, but all the inlet and outlet valves are open right

 

[Patrick F]

Hello Mr. Wilson

The pump issue usually doesn't rear its head until you have it on and under a load. It's better to have a leak you can re-teflon tape than to over-tape and over-tighten to the point of cracking the pump volute.

Another common leak is valves and unions. Cheap valves are a nightmare but yours are the premium ones. Using all rigid PVC causes the plumbing to misalign. Adding a stress relief section of Tigerflex/spaflex hose takes the pressure off of the pump, tank and valves while allowing for better alignment and fewer leaks.

The plumbing side of this hobby is for a fact the least explained part of this hobby bar none! I look forward to reading your chapter on this topic in the book someday...

Anyhow my question suprisingly pertains to just that plumbing.....I have personally viewed my share of aquariums and I have always pondered the use of teflon tape on external pump threadings. When I have brought up the topic to pool installers or pump repairmen they have always stated that you should absolutely not use teflon tape and just hand tighten the application. However I have viewed installations where in fact they did utilize teflon tape on the threadings with good and bad results.

Just curious about your two cents on the topic, also the input about using all hard pvc and not using any spa flex type material is completely bang on I recently viewed an aquarium that was setup with strictly rigid and after I saw them remove the pump and reinstall it the bulkhead from the sump to the return pump began leaking excessively....I would assume this was due to the fact they were torqueing the pvc to much when unattaching and reattaching the pump?

Cheers,

Patrick

 

[nineball]

1) Test the pump on a short loop or in a sink to make sure it is primed and working.
2) Test the plumbing with a garden hose to make sure there is no blockage.

If these are both working, you may just have an air lock issue. Open bleeder valves and purge out the air. Running a garden hose through the pump will also flush the air out and prime it properly.

I had two bad Sequence 4200 pumps in a row recently. It happens. A picture would help.

The pump is working, Mike says it sounds odd (too loud) but it was moving water past the drain however, the flow out of the pipes in the tank was imperceptible. We are going to try one more test and close off the system except for the closest loop only to determine whether the flow changes at all.

We just did the test and ran the system restricted to each one of the intakes individually. The flow did improve and was moving water. I would describe the force as similar to an open garden hose with the tap half open. I apologize if that isn't helpful but I don't have an adequate lexicon for this kind of measurement. So the belief is still that the pump is Mal functioning. It is a 3/4 HP seahorse as pictured here.............

Having said that I am getting very concerned about the 'expectation of flow' from the design standpoint. We are talking about further restricting the cl outflow to half inch to 'close the nozzles' and there by increasing the force into the tank. I am disturbed that we are talking about these kinds of measures without having adequate flow in the first place. These are some of the internal discussions "warts and all" that I promised everyone at the outset. I can state here for everyones benefit, especially those who have been with Mr. Wilson and I from the beginning, that I will have flow and it will be like Niagara falls, one way or another. As noted by many of our group on this thread, I will make modifications and changes that are obvious shortfalls until it is right.

More in a moment...........stay tuned!

Peter

 

[nineball]

woohoo! water! hope you had a good Canada day peter....looking forward to my day of this monday

Thank you very much gig, and the same warm regards back to you. :beer:

My Canada day reminds me of a summer spent in my youth waiting hours on end, for the Indian head to move on the static TV test pattern. Yesterday was reminiscent of that experience waiting for signs of flow from the pipes in the tank. I'm sure I will remember this when reflecting back on memorable Canada Days gone by..........

Peter

 

[Lyfey]

nineball / mr. wilson and others.. Just wanted to say I have been lurking since the beginning and I want to say.. "Awesome effort and planning" Keep up the great work and updated reefing information!

-Chris