Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)
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nineball
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This absolutely does NOT sound crazy. However the aforementioned pumps have been removed and are on their way back to the land of freedom and, and...........beer yah beer!!!
We have also decided to up the throughput to 1 HP for each pump. So your caution will be applied to the new devices. Thanks.
Peter
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Yes indeed, set-ups with 100% rigid pipe are almost impossible to seal. The valves leak no matter how tight you torque them and as you mentioned the bulkheads slip and bend to the point of leaking. It also isn't safe. If you lean on a pipe, you are leaning on the tank, sump and plumbing joints. If you are using Tigerflex/spaflex hose use Weld-on #795 flexible PVC glue as it can take some flex without cracking. I also use lots of primer. The clear primer is getting harder to find. The purple stuff is considered "professional" because it is used to assure you didn't miss a spot and more importantly so an inspector can see that a pipe fitter didn't get lazy and skip a step (against building code). We don't have inspectors and they can tell by the floor, my tool box, my hands and shoes that I used the purple primer. If you are really anal about how your plumbing looks you can use acetone on a clean cloth to remove the lettering on the pipes.
I can't speak for pool installers, but we do use the same fittings and I can guarantee they will leak if you don't use teflon tape. Brass fittings don't require teflon tape as it seals itself due to its soft nature, but I use the tape so it's easier to remove it later. Of course you don't use brass fittings in the tank, but they do show up on Co2 regulators etc.
For about 10 years I used the thicker pink teflon tape (for metal gas pipes) instead of the white stuff (for plastic water pipes), on the advice of an older and wiser aquarist. The idea is that it fills the gaps without having to wrap it more than two times around and with better consistency. I don't know if they changed the material they used or if my luck just ran out, but I started getting leaks with the pink tape. I switched back to the white a few years back and I'm sticking with it, but there has to be a better way. Most people will tell you they never get leaks. Remember to add four or five strokes to their golf score
For those who are completely new at this, the tape needs to be wrapped three to four times around the fitting starting at the end and working toward the base where the thread ends and the PVC adapter begins. You need to wrap the thread over and away from you (clockwise) if the part is in your left hand, or under and toward you (clockwise) if the part is in your right hand. It is important to turn clockwise or it will peel off (unravel) when you tighten it into the female thread. I leave the tape thin (two wraps) at the end where the thread starts to mesh with its female counterpart, and I use my thumbnail to cut a thread in the tape. This makes it easier to get the thread started and avoid cross threading. Tighten it as far as it goes by hand and then spin it one revolution with a wrench. This is where you have to use your built-in torque wrench powers to establish how tight is watertight without cracking the female part. These splits can be minute so you may not notice until it gets the wet test. A stressed/over-tightened fitting can also split days or weeks later when you aren't around. Some industrial fittings have metal rings around the female to assure that the tapered male thread doesn't wedge it open. As I mentioned before, a small length of flex/spa hose will relieve stress put on pumps, valves, unions, and tanks. people get over zealous wrestling with pumps and valves and forget that there is a delicate glass tank attached to those bulkheads.
I also mentioned that some vendors don't get the thread exactly right. When plastic fittings are made they are heated then cooled. If the cooling process is too long or too short it will affect the final size of the fitting (shrinkage rate). I often find batches of slip and threaded parts that simply do not fit. I have also found certain parts that are too thin and weak. For example, George Fischer 3/4" female adapters (FPT x socket) which is female pipe thread by female slip fit, frequently split open with even hand tightening. When this happens I assume it's a bad mould and move to another vendor like Spears or Dura. Valves are another sensitive area; buy premium valves with a single or double union so you can take it apart later without losing prime or draining the tank or sump.
I have considered trying plumbers paste for threads. Apparently it's "foolproof". The problem is it limits your ability to take the part off which defeats the point of threaded parts. 99% of leaks are from threaded parts. In Europe they still use horse hair and "dope" (sealing compound/paste).
I still lightly tape (1.5 revolutions) threaded parts in the tank that aren't under pressure. It makes it easier to take them apart after calcification and over-tightening. Teflon tape is a lubricant as well as a sealant. Do not silicone PVC parts, as it will not bond properly and interfere with the the thread seat. If you accidentally loosen the part, the silicone seal is compromised and a leak will form.
I'm still learning after 23 years. Last year I discovered what the arrow on the valve is referring to. It sounds easy... the arrow indicates the direction of flow right? Wrong! The arrow denotes the direction that the water can safely travel when you are servicing the pump without blowing out the ball in the valve. The valve is designed to be disassembled for service, namely "ball cleaning". The ball pops out one of the two sides but not the other. This is referred to as a "checked ball". With most premium valves the valve handle works like a key to open the valve housing. Pull the valve handle off and it has two protrusions on the inside like a key tool. Discount valves are not "checked" on either side so if you shut the valve off at 90 degrees then open one of the unions (threaded couplings), the ball will come flying out along with the contents of your aquarium. Well, I learned all that stuff the hard way years ago, but I didn't learn the arrow code until last year. The arrow should point toward the pump for the "in" (influent) as well as the "out" (effluent). This assures that the water pressure can push the direction of the arrow without blowing your balls off. Some non-union valves have an arrow. This arrow does in fact indicate the direction of the water during normal operation. I think the plumbers design this stuff for job security
Another trick is to check the floor for spare "O" rings. They have a tendency to fall out especially when you are frantically taking the pump on and off. A little silicone grease will help them stay seated, slippery and sealed. Do not over-tighten valves and unions. Hand tight is all they need. Bulkheads get the hand tight plus one turn rule, but be careful with the black PVC ones, they can crack and strip threads with even hand tightening. The original Rainbow Lifeguard (now Pentair) black PVC bulkheads were very durable. You could jump up and down on a 10' cheater bar and you couldn't over-wrench them. Companies started knocking them off in China and now you can't tell what you have. I go through a box of them at my supplier and test the flynut for play. If the flynut jiggles too much (sloppy thread) then I know it will strip and fail. You also get batches where the nut doesn't quite match the body of another batch. You discover this when you have ten BHs on set in the tank and a handful of flynuts that you need to match up like lost keys. Another problem is with the combo slip/thread they use on the wet side of some BHs. It is neither a slip, nor a thread so it's useless. The translucent blue BHs are weak and break easily. You guys don't even want to know how I know all this
Many people are moving to schedule 80 (heavy duty) industrial BHs even though they cost four times more and some tank manufacturers don't have the glass drills for them. The best black BHs are the ones with a white flynut with the stress notches cut in them. http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=17748&cat=0&page=1The white Hayward pool BHs are still tough as nails as well as fool & leak proof. The double sided gasket seal and cardboard flynut slider assures a good seal without pinching or shifting the gaskets. Going with a larger 1.5" BH gives you more flexibility in the future for changes. You never know when that 3/4" return line will need to become a 1.5" closed loop intake. It's easy to reduce a 1.5" hole down to 3/4" but the hole isn't getting any bigger if you want the reverse. So Peter, you need to insist that The Brothers Grim check your balls and make sure your pipe isn't rigid.
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Peter, I'm sorry, but I just don't feel you have investigated all the options, yet.
Dave.M
How big is the leaf basket for that thing?
reefgeek31
New member
Aquarist007
New member
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Me too and you will find alot of Mr.Wilson's notes on the Capn's log book thread
Feel free to copy my notes any time. As a (former???) school teacher you deserve it
I'm just here to apply a little liquid nitrogen to Peter's warts
Aquarist007
New member
Feel free to copy my notes any time. As a (former???) school teacher you deserve it
I'm just here to apply a little liquid nitrogen to Peter's warts
thanks. In a thread this big alot of your advise etc will be lost very easily to the general population of reefers.
This is one of the reasons I created the capn's log book thread---to share information that gets buried in threads on here.
You can be assured that I have given credit to you for everything that I have copied.
nineball
Active member
You do know that came from Jurassic park, right? Problem was they forgot to lock the gate.
Peter
reefdigger
New member
wow, the most longest and most amazing thread i've encounter...
Reefski's
Active member
Mr. Wilson- i appreciate your expertise and always look forward to your insights and experience.
how do you feel about holes in the bottom of the tank secured with a bulkhead?
i have ten of them in my tank and so far so good but it has only been a couple of years. does salt water degrade the seal over time? how long will they last?
i have a feeling most tanks are broken down after a few years, people move, lose interest, etc.
my recent problems with my leaking pump has made me think about all this again. my other pump under the tank stopped working a few weeks ago and will not restart after being turned off. i can't remove the pump as one of the ball valves will not turn to closed. i am afraid to force it for fear of causing a leak.
i am going to have to break the tank down to replace or remove the pump.
plumbing needs to be configured to allow easy removal of pumps for repair and maintenance.
that brings up another question.
stuff grows in all the pipes and the pumps too. how to clean them out? how often. that is another argument for oversizing the pipes to compensate for the decreased flow over time from stuff growing in the pipes and pump. you can't just take an external pump off and soak it in acid to remove deposits.
Carl
how do you feel about holes in the bottom of the tank secured with a bulkhead?
i have ten of them in my tank and so far so good but it has only been a couple of years. does salt water degrade the seal over time? how long will they last?
i have a feeling most tanks are broken down after a few years, people move, lose interest, etc.
my recent problems with my leaking pump has made me think about all this again. my other pump under the tank stopped working a few weeks ago and will not restart after being turned off. i can't remove the pump as one of the ball valves will not turn to closed. i am afraid to force it for fear of causing a leak.
i am going to have to break the tank down to replace or remove the pump.
plumbing needs to be configured to allow easy removal of pumps for repair and maintenance.
that brings up another question.
stuff grows in all the pipes and the pumps too. how to clean them out? how often. that is another argument for oversizing the pipes to compensate for the decreased flow over time from stuff growing in the pipes and pump. you can't just take an external pump off and soak it in acid to remove deposits.
Carl
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Sorry to hear about your recent disaster. Direct drive pumps are prone to leak or suck air but it's rare to have the seal completely blow apart. The silicone carbide seals on the Sequence pumps are very good quality. They last much longer than ceramic seals. The Pentair site calls their seal "stainless steel" but I think the wording is misleading and they are talking about a seal for a SS shaft and not a SS seal??? This is what the good ones look like... http://www.precisionlab.com/itemimages/AG_412_SILICN_CARBIDE_SEAL.PDF
I pay the extra money for magnet coupled pumps. They pay themselves off in the long run. Panworld and Iwaki pumps are just as noisy as Sequence pumps but their high pressure design yields more overall flow. For example a 290 watt Panworld HD 70 or Iwaki MD 70 series pump (rated at 1750/1500 GPH) will move the same amount of water as a Sequence Dart rated at 3600 GPH @ 160 watts. The Panworld & Iwaki pumps will pump water 39' high, while the Dart will only pump 12' high. Sequence has a few pressure pumps like the MantaRay, but it's 690 watts for 4200 @ 7' and it's still direct drive. After 5 years or so you will be seeing cavitation, noisy bearings and maybe even a drip.
Iwaki MX series is good for those who want a strong pump (up to 5 HP) with high pressure, low noise 50-60 DB, and saltwater safe non-metallic magnet coupling. The MX series are designed for industrial use so they have several carbon parts for run-dry protection. The 5 HP pump runs at the same ambient noise as a hammerhead. http://www.bphpumps.com/iwaki-pumps.asp
There are a few pump maintenance issues that come up. The bearings are sealed so that's off the list, so that leaves human error, which includes but isn't limited too saltcreep/spray/drip on the motor, poorly vented cabinets (overheating, dust in fan), sand allowed into the pump, and over dosing calcium. A high calcium level will not cause calcification of hot/warm moving parts in the pump; however, overzealous addition of calcium hydroxide (kalkwasser) & calcium chloride (turbo calcium) will allow excess/free calcium to bind with hot pump parts. The balling system in particular is bad for this. proper dosing and/or a calcium reactor will eliminate the need for washing pump parts in vinegar or other weak acids.
I've never taken apart an old system, even after 20 years and found calcification in the pipes. I have however heard of reports of calcification in pipes in takes with extremely high calcium dosing and general alchemy. hard tube worms and other non-photosynthetic inverts do not attach in high flow pipes or even drain lines to a great extent. You can expect a little bacterial slime in slow moving pipes, but nothing a few on/off cycles of the pump won't clear.
Your pump that quit on you may have calcification. This is another problem that is isolated to cheaper pumps like the Sequence series. Chemically rated pumps have numerous anti-corrosive features that keep it clean and running smooth. This is the hidden value of Iwaki pumps.
On the subject of heat transfer there is some misinformation out there. Some non-fan cooled pumps like the smaller Panworld, Iwaki, and Poseidon/Velocity pumps are reported to raise the water temp 5 F. This is only true with unvented cabinets. The pump throws off heat and if trapped in the cabinet, it will heat the water. It isn't a simple heat transfer from the motor to the wet end of the pump. Add some lower cold air intake vents and some upper hot air exhaust vents and an exhaust fan with tight enclosures. The evaporative cooling offered by a fan pointing directly down at the sump will out-cool whatever heat a pump can transfer.
I have never witnessed a long term bulkhead seal degradation. I still have some "brand new", never used, Rainbow Lifeguard bulkheads and they still feel like the day I got them in 1991 when they came out on the market (I bought hundreds of them so I'm still finding them squirreled away like acorns in my parts boxes in various storage areas). I've taken apart hobby tanks and fish warehouses that are over 30 years old and I can't say that I have seen an EPDM bulkhead gasket go completely hard, crack or leak. I have however seen cheap valve seals leak after only 5-10 years of exposure to saltwater. It's tempting to buy the $5.00 valves from Lowes when they industrial quality ones are $30, but you get what you pay for. Shop around and find a deal on good ones. Buy a few spares so the size matches up should you do plumbing upgrades down the road. You can always grease rubber parts with silicone grease upon installation or later on down the road as preventative maintenance. Keep in mind, some sleeping dogs should left to lay. A well intentioned turn of a valve union or tightening of a bulkhead can tweak a gasket, washer or "O" ring the wrong way or shift a BH sideways.
You're absolutely right about the longevity of reef systems. People get out of the hobby or upgrade so you never get a true review of a product. BTW, those where some crazy "distributors" on that PVC link you posted earlier. I don't know how I would use one, but I'll find a way. You never grow out of lego I guess
mr.wilson
.Registered Member
Maybe these are more practical. The second one is right near Georgetown.
http://www.3reef.com/forums/general...lon-fish-only-tank-my-office-lobby-34927.html
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8952
http://www.monsterfishkeepers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74879
Reefski's
Active member
interesting what you say about dosing calcium and pump failure. i have been dosing with CaCl almost since setting up this tank and my calcium level has been over 500 at times with dKH levels of 11-12 also.
it was high enough that i got sand binding together in the one tank that has aragonite sand. the sand in the DT is quartz, but that is another long sad story.
it was high enough that i got sand binding together in the one tank that has aragonite sand. the sand in the DT is quartz, but that is another long sad story.
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