Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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Been following the thread for a while and my favorite part is definitely the T-rex. :lolspin: I won't be able to come tomorrow night, but I can't wait to meet you guys at the booth! :D

It was nice to meet you at MACNA and hope you make it a little further north to Des Moines next year.
 
Well Mr. Wilson don't you feel kinda overworked on that CL seeing as how they have the MP60's now that work on 1" thick acrylic or glass? LoL I'm just joshing ya. If you and mr. wilson find that the flow isn't up to what you'd like will you throw some of those bad boys on their just to show us?!!

Absolutely! I wish it was as easy as dropping a pump in the tank and walking away, but it's apples and oranges when it comes to performance. Here are my observations of the MP60...

mp60.jpg


The display tank they had it on was filled with semi-flat, semi buoyant plastic polymers. The polymers are very easy to keep in suspension, unlike detritus which is much smaller and heavier/more dense. The tank only had about 50 gallons of water but the MP60 still had difficulty keeping the plastic beads suspended. They would tend to settle at the far end and slowly get picked up from time to time.

I couldn't tell how noisy the pump was but the smaller units are already loud when on pulse so it could only be worse. The guy at the booth said they had to use smaller plastic beads because the MP60 couldn't circulate them through the impeller shroud the way the smaller units could.

The pump was able to make a wave at the surface, but I don't see a benefit to this effect unless the wave is experienced lower where the corals are. According to the Tunze distributor for North America, the official Tunze position is that a wave device that makes surface waves will shorten the life of a glass tank by 10-15%. For example, a typical tank will last 20 years, but with surface waves it will last only 17 years. A lower quality tank or one that has a flaw would be of greater concern. I don't like the look of rhythmic wave devices that have a uniform sway. The pattern is easy to spot and looks unnatural. Reefs in the wild have a sway that varies in duration and intensity with longer spiral swirls, rather than short choppy movements.

The MP60 fails to deliver on some of the key flow dynamics. They do not move low oxygen water from the bottom up to the surface for gas exchange. Instead they move water from side to side with only passive gas exchange as 50% of the water moves toward the surface after crashing into the end wall. True laminar flow is picked up by an intake at the opposing end of the tank, not drawn from behind the pump. The MP60 pushes water across the tank and pulls intake water back against that flow, usually around the margins.

If the pump is positioned within 6" of the substrate it will turn the sand and dig holes. This higher placement allows detritus to settle in the substrate. The end to end flow also pushes detritus into rock work rather than suspending it gently where it can be made available to coral polyps. If the pump is too close to the surface (<6") it will cavitate (create a vortex) and draw air into the water. While the display tank had surface waves, it didn't wave eddies of ripples that encourage gas exchange and a shimmering effect.

Another issue I have with stream pumps in general is they do not deliver even flow over the length of the tank. Many have suggested stream pumps for Peter's tank, but none have a solution for providing moderate flow over 16'. The first 2-3' will bow corals off of the rocks, and the last 2-3' will receive diminished flow. On top of this, we would need one on each side of the rock work as it is a two-sided tank. Unlike closed loops systems that can be adapted to reef formations, stream pumps are limited to 90˚ mounts at the ends of the tank. Once you add your reef structure, the flow dynamics are purely random and uninspired.

While we do have four oversized strainers on the intakes of the closed loops, we do not have any moving parts in the tank. The screens around the MP60 are substantially smaller and I would suspect are shrimp and anemone grinders. They would be fine for a fish only tank with larger fish though.

The smaller Vortec models were displayed with two per (smaller) tank. This worked much better as one could be located at the top and the other at the bottom on the opposing end. The MP60 should have been set up like this but I can see why they didn't want to illustrate that it takes two $700 pumps to move 50 gallons of water:) If I had to use an MP60, I would put it close to the bottom and use flat rocks to keep it from disturbing the sand (or make a concrete substrate). Then I would locate the return from sump at the opposing end at the surface to make a somewhat circular flow and good surface disruption.
 
Hi Peter, Hi Mr. Wilson

I am on the plane on my way to Detroit and I wanted to say hi again from 35000 ft.
It's been a real pleasure to meet you in Orlando. This three days you made me and my wife feel like home. I already consider you my good friends.
Thank you again and I wish you all the best!

Your good friend Andy

It was great meeting you and your wife Gabriela. The pictures of your tank (5000 ltrs) were quite amazing and I'm looking forward to see how it evolves. Make sure you link your build thread here so the others can enjoy it. Hopefully someday I can make it there in person to see it.

Good times good friends.
 
Peter & Mr. Wilson,
Sorry I missed you guys but did stop by the profilux booth and after speaking with them for about 1/2 hour I am now leaning that way on a controller for my system. I had a blast at MACNA meeting new people and the speakers that I attended were awesome. :thumbsup:

Maybe I will catch up with you guys at another event like this soon! :wildone:

Eric

Sorry I didn't see you. We were hoping to stick around the booth more, but there was so much to see and so many people to talk to throughout the show. The show badges were supposed to have our user names, but that fell through so everyone was stuck with their first name. I think Sanjay was about the only one that could be identified from his tag :)

It looks like the leading competitor for the Profilux is the Apex unit. It's a good unit as well, but the Profilux offers many more options and room for expansion. If you need just the bare bones, go with Apex, if you want a solid platform for long term expansion, then go with Profilux if it works within your budget.
 
You are so right Sara. I did mean Peter and Shawn, but they have changed the site and I couldn't find the "edit" button when I came back to the post to change it. Sorry about that, I had a dyslexia moment. Anyway it was really nice to meet you.

Lisa

Steve's a great guy, you don't have to be ashamed of him :)
 
I believe they are traveling today to avoid the labour day rush...

It was very nice to talk with you at MACNA, and I hope you had safe travels home.

Tim

Sorry I didn't see you there Tim. I probably did, but the name tag "Tim" didn't help :) Hopefully Des Moines MACNA lets us use our username alias's.
 
Peter and Shawn it was really great to meet you both and spend a lot of time talking about the things we are all so passionate about. I really enjoyed your time and the discussions. Thanks!

Stan

Hey Stan, thanks for the good conversation and beer :beer:
 
My guess is Peter and Mr. Wilson and Team have so much to share that they are lost in deciding which picture or topic to start with first. Yes that must be it. :D

That Vortec pic is the only one I took. Peter has lots though. Most of the show was LED lighting. I was hoping for a more diverse collection of skimmers, pumps, etc. etc. Everyone was using or selling Tufa rock from the Keys. There were a handful of coral frag booths with varying water quality and clarity. Live Aquaria (Fosters & Smith) had the best display with mangroves and Bangai Cardinals (bamboo forest). Every day I saw new stuff that I had overlooked the previous days. The show didn't have much to offer in new product announcements. Interzoo is where that takes place. Some of the mainstream stuff is released at the Backer trade show in Chicago http://www.hhbacker.com/shows/x09/pdf/ColocationArticleFromPETAGE.pdf

Some of the speakers were better than others. Delbeek, Michael, Feldman, Shimek, and Sanjay were the highlights of what I was able to attend. I missed a lot so I don't want to sell the others short. There were so many people to talk to that it made it hard to get away to see some of the speakers I have admired for years.

I'll post some more details of the show as I think of them.
 
Although I did not get to meet you Peter, I did however get to meet Mr. Wilson at MACNA. I can tell that this tank is not only going to be a fabulous set up, but also a fabulous ecosystem full of life. Mr. Wilson and I only spoke briefly, but it is a rarity that I meet someone, even at MACNA with the passion and information that he showed. It was very refreshing to meet someone as eager as myself to learn as much as we can about the hobby. Peter, I must say that it looks like you certainly recruited a fine group of gentlemen for this build, and I am sure without a shadow of doubt this is going to be an EPIC aquarium. Keep up the good work, and maybe I will get the pleasure of meeting you next time around. Also, Jesco says hello Mr. Wilson, and tell Carl and THE BOY likewise for myself.

It was to talk and meet with you and your girlfriend (wife?)... oops if she isn't your wife I hope your real wife doesn't follow the thread :) Tell Jesco I said Hey :)
 
Random stuff from MACNA (before I forget)...

Sunlight Supply announced a new 95 watt 4' VHO T5 bulb. They told me to wait an hour as the bulbs were still in transit. Later that day when I went back and saw the fixture was still empty they informed me that all of the bulbs came in broken :( They sound like a good idea for deeper tanks where standard 54 watt T5s only illuminate the first two feet.

The best LED light I saw was the (Cree-based) Aqua Illumination (AI) unit. It uses 4 x 45˚ optics in the centre with 4 outer optics at 70˚ for better coverage. They claim that the 8 (wht+blu+royal blu) array unit covers a 24 x 24 x 24 cube and the display tank appeared to do just that. The controller was able to dim it to any shade of white/blue. The price wasn't bad, $550 plus another $75 if you want the controller. The Profilux controller is fully capable of dimming and colour shifts if you want to go that route. They also have a 4 light array nano fixture. There is a small exhaust fan on the top of the heat sink that appeared to be quiet.

The best MHL lights at the show were Ushio. We're still crunching the numbers and finalizing our lighting choice. We got our three plasma lights and have tested them briefly. They appear to emit as much heat as MHL, and the colour is very yellow. We haven't dimmed them down to get a bluer (higher Kelvin degree) light yet, but it looks like too much intensity/PAR will be compromised in doing so. They will however work well for the mangrove & refugium units.

I guess I forgot the rest already :)
 
Hmmm, I see how I rate ;)

I'm starting a new thread about meeting you. There just isn't enough time to talk about here in Peter's thread :)

It was a pleasure to meet you and spend a few days talking in between all the other stuff going on. I was amazed that you knew more aquarium industry people than most LFS owners, wholesalers, and manufacturers. There's still some gossip you need to PM me I'm sure :)
 
Absolutely! I wish it was as easy as dropping a pump in the tank and walking away, but it's apples and oranges when it comes to performance. Here are my observations of the MP60...

mp60.jpg


The display tank they had it on was filled with semi-flat, semi buoyant plastic polymers. The polymers are very easy to keep in suspension, unlike detritus which is much smaller and heavier/more dense. The tank only had about 50 gallons of water but the MP60 still had difficulty keeping the plastic beads suspended. They would tend to settle at the far end and slowly get picked up from time to time.

I couldn't tell how noisy the pump was but the smaller units are already loud when on pulse so it could only be worse. The guy at the booth said they had to use smaller plastic beads because the MP60 couldn't circulate them through the impeller shroud the way the smaller units could.

The pump was able to make a wave at the surface, but I don't see a benefit to this effect unless the wave is experienced lower where the corals are. According to the Tunze distributor for North America, the official Tunze position is that a wave device that makes surface waves will shorten the life of a glass tank by 10-15%. For example, a typical tank will last 20 years, but with surface waves it will last only 17 years. A lower quality tank or one that has a flaw would be of greater concern. I don't like the look of rhythmic wave devices that have a uniform sway. The pattern is easy to spot and looks unnatural. Reefs in the wild have a sway that varies in duration and intensity with longer spiral swirls, rather than short choppy movements.

The MP60 fails to deliver on some of the key flow dynamics. They do not move low oxygen water from the bottom up to the surface for gas exchange. Instead they move water from side to side with only passive gas exchange as 50% of the water moves toward the surface after crashing into the end wall. True laminar flow is picked up by an intake at the opposing end of the tank, not drawn from behind the pump. The MP60 pushes water across the tank and pulls intake water back against that flow, usually around the margins.

If the pump is positioned within 6" of the substrate it will turn the sand and dig holes. This higher placement allows detritus to settle in the substrate. The end to end flow also pushes detritus into rock work rather than suspending it gently where it can be made available to coral polyps. If the pump is too close to the surface (<6") it will cavitate (create a vortex) and draw air into the water. While the display tank had surface waves, it didn't wave eddies of ripples that encourage gas exchange and a shimmering effect.

Another issue I have with stream pumps in general is they do not deliver even flow over the length of the tank. Many have suggested stream pumps for Peter's tank, but none have a solution for providing moderate flow over 16'. The first 2-3' will bow corals off of the rocks, and the last 2-3' will receive diminished flow. On top of this, we would need one on each side of the rock work as it is a two-sided tank. Unlike closed loops systems that can be adapted to reef formations, stream pumps are limited to 90˚ mounts at the ends of the tank. Once you add your reef structure, the flow dynamics are purely random and uninspired.

While we do have four oversized strainers on the intakes of the closed loops, we do not have any moving parts in the tank. The screens around the MP60 are substantially smaller and I would suspect are shrimp and anemone grinders. They would be fine for a fish only tank with larger fish though.

The smaller Vortec models were displayed with two per (smaller) tank. This worked much better as one could be located at the top and the other at the bottom on the opposing end. The MP60 should have been set up like this but I can see why they didn't want to illustrate that it takes two $700 pumps to move 50 gallons of water:) If I had to use an MP60, I would put it close to the bottom and use flat rocks to keep it from disturbing the sand (or make a concrete substrate). Then I would locate the return from sump at the opposing end at the surface to make a somewhat circular flow and good surface disruption.

I agree.

What many people don't realize is how fast a propeller spinning in seawater builds considerable resistance from collecting slime, debris and deposits. This directly impedes performance in a short time, much like a boat hull and prop sitting in seawater that slows it's speed quickly. Just look at how often you have to clean your front viewing panel. The same process is occurring on the pumps propeller. Very few people I have asked actually clean their in dwelling pumps regularly. I'd like to see a performance curve of a Vortec or Tunze after it's been in service for a month or two.

Closed loops with VFD's coupled with eductors provide a great deal of flow at a fraction of the cost (when including purchase price). I run an Iwaki 1/2 hp pump controlled with a VFD that ramps up and down much like wave action on a reef, and runs 6 eductors! Though the pump draws 380 watts, when controlled with a VFD it averages only 120 watts, less than a Dart! Eductors in the DT have no moving parts and have continued to perform like new after 3 years without any maintenance what so ever. Further, I believe in dwelling aquarium trade pumps are overpriced compared to much larger commercial full duty external pumps. JMO
 
Sorry I didn't see you there Tim. I probably did, but the name tag "Tim" didn't help :) Hopefully Des Moines MACNA lets us use our username alias's.

We went out for dinner on Sunday to the brazilian BBQ. :)

I was a not so attentive co-host to a large group.

Like yourself, I met a lot of people. I cannot imagine adding the complexity of reef central alias name matching to real life names at that scale.
 
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I took a look at the usual aquarium product news sites today (rb.com & GBD.com) and they are overflowing with hype about the new MP60. Articles, ads, pictures and more ads. Did I mention the ads?

I didn't notice at the show that they claim it moves 5500 GPH. I think they include the intake and output in that number. 5500 GPH on a 50 gallon tank with a surge cycle should have washed the floor, litterally.

I'm not sure how much slower the prop turns, but it is expose to light and it is directly in the tank. I don't consider opening a magnetic coupled closed loop or return pump to be a maintenance issue ever. You can run the pump for 20 years and only need to service it if the intakes low sand or shells to get in.

Vortec pumps will always have a market with people who don't see a need for engineered flow dynamics and like taking out of the box and simply dropping it in the tank. In many reef tanks this is all you need and it is a simple system. The other reason they haven't worked for me is the limitations of where you can mount them. Most of the tanks I have done are viewed from multiple sides or the ends and back wall is inaccessible.

We programmed our return pump yesterday. It runs at 65% most of the time, then surges at 100% for one minute, every 15 minutes. It really stirs things up. I can't wait to see the other 4 pumps fired up on a similar cycle. The pump uses 410 watts at full power producing 6500 GPH. It only uses 145 watts at 65%. we tried quite a few combinations of exit/effluent ports but the penductor/eductor performed the best by a long shot. Peter will post some pics and we are overdue for video.
 
I'm starting a new thread about meeting you. There just isn't enough time to talk about here in Peter's thread :)

It was a pleasure to meet you and spend a few days talking in between all the other stuff going on. I was amazed that you knew more aquarium industry people than most LFS owners, wholesalers, and manufacturers. There's still some gossip you need to PM me I'm sure :)


LOL!!! Thanks, I feel much better now :wave:

It was also a pleasure finally meeting you in person and enjoying a few beverages and meals!
 
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I didn't notice at the show that they claim it moves 5500 GPH. I think they include the intake and output in that number. 5500 GPH on a 50 gallon tank with a surge cycle should have washed the floor, litterally.

Vortec pumps will always have a market with people who don't see a need for engineered flow dynamics and like taking out of the box and simply dropping it in the tank. In many reef tanks this is all you need and it is a simple system. The other reason they haven't worked for me is the limitations of where you can mount them. Most of the tanks I have done are viewed from multiple sides or the ends and back wall is inaccessible.

So the pump has the ability to be turned down (not sure of that level) and also up to the max of the 5,500 gph level. Obviously they had the one on display dialed all the way back as you said or it would have blown the water out the other side of the tank.

So I'm one buying into all the ads and hype since I apparently didn't engineer my flow properly ;) I do have a closed loop, 2 surges and a return as well as 2 MP40W ES's AND a Tunze 6100. My issue is that I have jumpers in my tank and I have to keep screens on top, so I prefer the Vortech's since there are no wires messing up my screens. Would I prefer Tunze's on the back wall not messing up my view? Absolutely! Would I prefer no extra pumps at all? Heck yes!!! But I thought I would have enough flow and I don't, so I've had to add a clutter to my end viewing panes. The thought of more flow and the extra strong magnet for my 3/4" acrylic are appealing to me as I'd ditch the Tunze with its cord and add the MP60W. So I guess next time you are driving through Chicago, you indeed have to stop and re-engineer me, on a budget of course! :hammer:
 
Clearly a heavily illustrated book/web site on flow dynamics and control in aquaria is sorely needed. Please add this to your list, Mr. Wilson.
wink.gif


Dave.M
 
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