Coral Tank from Canada (1350gal Display Tank)

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I agree.

What many people don't realize is how fast a propeller spinning in seawater builds considerable resistance from collecting slime, debris and deposits. This directly impedes performance in a short time, much like a boat hull and prop sitting in seawater that slows it's speed quickly. Just look at how often you have to clean your front viewing panel. The same process is occurring on the pumps propeller. Very few people I have asked actually clean their in dwelling pumps regularly. I'd like to see a performance curve of a Vortec or Tunze after it's been in service for a month or two.

Just a quick question regarding this. How do you clean up the closed loop pipes? I happened to get my hands on a PVC piping that had been in service for two years. I then cut it from the middle and the inside walls of the pipes were growing everything from algae to tube worm tubes. It was nowhere near stuck yet but definitely enough to make a difference. This has to have some kind of effect to the flow too. Or have I misunderstood something?

Thanks for all the great information in this thread. It is a pleasure to keep on following it.
 
I think the MP60 is getting a bad rap unfairly.

Taking the position that this is a solution for all tanks, or even the "best solution" for any one tank is simply over-stating the position of this or any product on the market.

The MP60 has a great place in the hobby in many situations. It, like everything else, is a balance of compromises. There is a noise increase over in-tank powerheads, but the profile is small. There are MANY programmable modes, not just the above discussed wave modes. Any discussion on "waves" should be just that, and not attributed to any one product IMO.

To frame my comments, personally, these pumps (I owned 2 MP40s) are not meeting my needs, but my needs are different like everyone else. I just think that they are getting a really unfair shake here.
 
Just a quick question regarding this. How do you clean up the closed loop pipes? I happened to get my hands on a PVC piping that had been in service for two years. I then cut it from the middle and the inside walls of the pipes were growing everything from algae to tube worm tubes. It was nowhere near stuck yet but definitely enough to make a difference. This has to have some kind of effect to the flow too. Or have I misunderstood something?

Thanks for all the great information in this thread. It is a pleasure to keep on following it.

I oversized all my piping to accommodate any flow restriction from growth as you mentioned and to be sure I don't starve a pump. However I've not seen any significant lumen narrowing over the three years the tank has been running, nor from tanks I've had for many years. So I suspect it's more dependent on water parameters rather than length of time it's been in operation.
 
Random stuff from MACNA (before I forget)...

Sunlight Supply announced a new 95 watt 4' VHO T5 bulb. They told me to wait an hour as the bulbs were still in transit. Later that day when I went back and saw the fixture was still empty they informed me that all of the bulbs came in broken :( They sound like a good idea for deeper tanks where standard 54 watt T5s only illuminate the first two feet.

The best LED light I saw was the (Cree-based) Aqua Illumination (AI) unit. It uses 4 x 45˚ optics in the centre with 4 outer optics at 70˚ for better coverage. They claim that the 8 (wht+blu+royal blu) array unit covers a 24 x 24 x 24 cube and the display tank appeared to do just that. The controller was able to dim it to any shade of white/blue. The price wasn't bad, $550 plus another $75 if you want the controller. The Profilux controller is fully capable of dimming and colour shifts if you want to go that route. They also have a 4 light array nano fixture. There is a small exhaust fan on the top of the heat sink that appeared to be quiet.

The best MHL lights at the show were Ushio. We're still crunching the numbers and finalizing our lighting choice. We got our three plasma lights and have tested them briefly. They appear to emit as much heat as MHL, and the colour is very yellow. We haven't dimmed them down to get a bluer (higher Kelvin degree) light yet, but it looks like too much intensity/PAR will be compromised in doing so. They will however work well for the mangrove & refugium units.

I guess I forgot the rest already :)

Certainly looking for some qualification on "best". :)

I know from conversations with Nineball that you are pulling out the stops on testing equipment, so I'm really looking forward to understanding the process for testing you go through and the analysis of the data.

Lighting & Flow are two topics that I love to learn about.
 
I took a look at the usual aquarium product news sites today (rb.com & GBD.com) and they are overflowing with hype about the new MP60. Articles, ads, pictures and more ads. Did I mention the ads?

I didn't notice at the show that they claim it moves 5500 GPH. I think they include the intake and output in that number. 5500 GPH on a 50 gallon tank with a surge cycle should have washed the floor, litterally.

I'm not sure how much slower the prop turns, but it is expose to light and it is directly in the tank. I don't consider opening a magnetic coupled closed loop or return pump to be a maintenance issue ever. You can run the pump for 20 years and only need to service it if the intakes low sand or shells to get in.

Vortec pumps will always have a market with people who don't see a need for engineered flow dynamics and like taking out of the box and simply dropping it in the tank. In many reef tanks this is all you need and it is a simple system. The other reason they haven't worked for me is the limitations of where you can mount them. Most of the tanks I have done are viewed from multiple sides or the ends and back wall is inaccessible.

We programmed our return pump yesterday. It runs at 65% most of the time, then surges at 100% for one minute, every 15 minutes. It really stirs things up. I can't wait to see the other 4 pumps fired up on a similar cycle. The pump uses 410 watts at full power producing 6500 GPH. It only uses 145 watts at 65%. we tried quite a few combinations of exit/effluent ports but the penductor/eductor performed the best by a long shot. Peter will post some pics and we are overdue for video.

I think you too quickly dismiss the Vortech or Tunze applications. I understand you are a fan of closed loops, but for the cost, electricity savings, easy mounting (Tunze in particular) and ability to adjust and reposition as the reef grows, or add flow as you need, you can't beat the Tunze's and Vortech pumps. I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly as I think many would argue that a closed loop is now a more antiquated solution with all the controllers/modes the Tunze's and Vortech's have. (Just my opinion)

Mike
 
I'm with Mike after my bad experiences with my closed loops and the electrical savings. i still need two external pumps for my skimmer and tank return, and i am saving a lot of electricity too!

then there is the whole question about maintenance of external pumps. how often? how, you can't just put them in an acid bath and run them a couple of hours. and then all the pipework for the closed loops grows stuff too. when i looked into the closed loop intake line there was a lot of stuff growing on the pipe decreasing the lumen size.

i'm liking the Tunze's with the multicontroller.

Carl
 
So the pump has the ability to be turned down (not sure of that level) and also up to the max of the 5,500 gph level. Obviously they had the one on display dialed all the way back as you said or it would have blown the water out the other side of the tank.

So I'm one buying into all the ads and hype since I apparently didn't engineer my flow properly ;) I do have a closed loop, 2 surges and a return as well as 2 MP40W ES's AND a Tunze 6100. My issue is that I have jumpers in my tank and I have to keep screens on top, so I prefer the Vortech's since there are no wires messing up my screens. Would I prefer Tunze's on the back wall not messing up my view? Absolutely! Would I prefer no extra pumps at all? Heck yes!!! But I thought I would have enough flow and I don't, so I've had to add a clutter to my end viewing panes. The thought of more flow and the extra strong magnet for my 3/4" acrylic are appealing to me as I'd ditch the Tunze with its cord and add the MP60W. So I guess next time you are driving through Chicago, you indeed have to stop and re-engineer me, on a budget of course! :hammer:

Hey Sara B! Let me know when your ready to "Donate" your MP 40's post flow remodel!:lolspin:
 
Special Note To All Family Members of This Thread.

Special Note To All Family Members of This Thread.

On the subject of any equipment mentioned in this thread...........

I am determined NOT to initiate any Brand Comparison that does not respect the fact that some folks on this thread will inevitably be using all the flavours with a great deal of enthusiasm to boot. There are obvious differences in circumstances and context that make generalizations virtually impossible. So there is NOT a bias from this OP. Everything is fair game.

Having said that, as most of you know by now, I am struggling to identify best practices in a hobby environment that is by all accounts still fairly young and undocumented. I will encourage discussion about alternative architectures and I will even mention products or manufacturers that I believe are contributing to our efforts to achieve best practices for this/our tank. I will never say that it is necessarily the only practice but one of the best practices that this educated group could identify and be proud of. There may well be times where I have to make a decision to choose one alternative over another simply because there is no easy solution that is apparent. I will take full responsibility for those decisions when they arise.

You folks......All of you......have made this project soar with your positive comments and contributions. I have not been as 'current' with updates as I would have liked for the past couple of weeks but I hope to return to normal in the next week. There is a lot happening behind the scenes and I hope to bring you all back into the picture as soon as I can.

Peter
 
IMO a closed loop system with a pressure rated pump ( Iwaki MD 100 RLT) plumbed into an Ocean Motion 4 way/(8 way) being ran with a VFD, with penductors on the return ends. Goes a long way towards flow nirvana.:mixed:
 
New Aquarium

New Aquarium

Is this really a house??? possibly a botanical garden or Sea World maybe? In any case WoW! a large house with a new almost finished basement, a large aquarium tank and a nice large backyard! When i win the lottery i'll have a place that almost looks like yours...hahaha. i can only wish!
 
Peter and the rest of the followers interested in LED lighting,

LED lighting displays have some amazing and unique qualities that are quickly growing in popularity. Not only do they produce less heat, but they are showing amazing growth results in corals and have unbelievable controlability when it comes to the desired lighting appearance to your display. I have always tried to create the most "realistic" set-up as possible for my mini reef and creating real life events that occur in nature would be the pinnacle of success.

With that being said, if you were to look up the Aqua Illumination and Profilux controller on youtube, you can see that this system, along with some amazing inginuity and equipment additions, you could not only create a rainstorm simmulation but a thunder and lightning storm as well. The combination of the two elements (The aqua illumination system and the profilux controller) will create programmable light changes that include cloudy days, moon lighting equal to real-time moon phase stats, rain storm cloudiness, and thunder/lightning storm lighting effects. This was by far one of the most amazing asthetical upgrades that I have ever seen for a reef tank. It does, however, cost an extreme amount and limits it to the most financially capable reefers.

Still a huge fan of the display and can't wait to see the additions of livestock to come.
 
So the pump has the ability to be turned down (not sure of that level) and also up to the max of the 5,500 gph level. Obviously they had the one on display dialed all the way back as you said or it would have blown the water out the other side of the tank.

So I'm one buying into all the ads and hype since I apparently didn't engineer my flow properly ;) I do have a closed loop, 2 surges and a return as well as 2 MP40W ES's AND a Tunze 6100. My issue is that I have jumpers in my tank and I have to keep screens on top, so I prefer the Vortech's since there are no wires messing up my screens. Would I prefer Tunze's on the back wall not messing up my view? Absolutely! Would I prefer no extra pumps at all? Heck yes!!! But I thought I would have enough flow and I don't, so I've had to add a clutter to my end viewing panes. The thought of more flow and the extra strong magnet for my 3/4" acrylic are appealing to me as I'd ditch the Tunze with its cord and add the MP60W. So I guess next time you are driving through Chicago, you indeed have to stop and re-engineer me, on a budget of course! :hammer:

It sounds like you have the common "throw everything at it til it works" approach. It seemed to work for your nuisance algae problem and I'm sure it works with your flow.

Our goal here in the thread is to establish a succinct, clean, and well thought out method of keeping a reef tank. There are no rule books and no instruction manual that comes with your tank, so we have to make do with "best practices" of the time.

It's entirely possible that you could change your closed loop pump and adjust the angles of the ins & outs and get the flow you need. It is also possible that big prop pumps will get you there too.

Fish usually stop jumping after the first few weeks, but if they are fighting they may go carpet surfing.
 
Just a quick question regarding this. How do you clean up the closed loop pipes? I happened to get my hands on a PVC piping that had been in service for two years. I then cut it from the middle and the inside walls of the pipes were growing everything from algae to tube worm tubes. It was nowhere near stuck yet but definitely enough to make a difference. This has to have some kind of effect to the flow too. Or have I misunderstood something?

Thanks for all the great information in this thread. It is a pleasure to keep on following it.

High velocity flow keeps the pipes clean. A VFD also helps flush out debris. I haven't had a problem with pipe build-up or blockage in my 31 years keeping marine fish, other than low-flow canister filters.
 
I think the MP60 is getting a bad rap unfairly.

Taking the position that this is a solution for all tanks, or even the "best solution" for any one tank is simply over-stating the position of this or any product on the market.

The MP60 has a great place in the hobby in many situations. It, like everything else, is a balance of compromises. There is a noise increase over in-tank powerheads, but the profile is small. There are MANY programmable modes, not just the above discussed wave modes. Any discussion on "waves" should be just that, and not attributed to any one product IMO.

To frame my comments, personally, these pumps (I owned 2 MP40s) are not meeting my needs, but my needs are different like everyone else. I just think that they are getting a really unfair shake here.

The closed loop vs. powerhead debate is just as passionate as the Mac vs. PC debate. I'm in the minority as a Mac user, and I'm fine with being in the minority as a closed loop proponent.

The positive press of Vortecs has been so overwhelming that I had to say something from the other perspective. While I agree that they serve some tanks very well, I don't think they have made closed loops obsolete. I have used them on several occasions and even considered them for Peter's holding tanks. We went with penductors instead and saved a lot of money on equipment and energy.

It appears that all of the earlier performance issues have been fixed, and the pulse noise isn't that bad. Jake Adams really likes them and you can't get a much better endorsement than that.

I'm doing a 30x30x30 cube next week that will be run on one MP40 and a P3 Poseidon return pump. I'll let you know how it works out.
 
Certainly looking for some qualification on "best". :)

I know from conversations with Nineball that you are pulling out the stops on testing equipment, so I'm really looking forward to understanding the process for testing you go through and the analysis of the data.

Lighting & Flow are two topics that I love to learn about.

Playing around with flow is just a matter of my time. Lighting on the other hand comes with a big bill for fixtures, bulbs, and meters. We were fortunate enough to have a manufacturer send us an LED light for our comparison, and I had a few MHL fixtures available to add to the mix. Now we are considering trying different bulbs. The 400 watt mogul MHL is 12500 K and looks very white, so we would like to try a 14000 K. The 250 watt 20000 K MHL are a little too blue and lacking in PAR so we would like to swap them out for 14000 K.

The plasma light is very yellow and looks like it would be too dim and low in PAR if we dim it down to a blue colour. Coverage is limited like LED and they generate heat like MHL. It seems to have the best and worst of both technologies, but to be fair we haven't tried dimming yet. They are the most awkward fixtures to mount of the collection as it has a ballast box and a power source box attached to the light.

Metal halide is my favourite thus far. They run hot, but we are heavily equipped to bent them. They use a little more energy than LED but Peter is heavily equipped to handle that as well :) As it stands, I would go with 250 MHL with actinic supplemental & moonlight.
 
I think you too quickly dismiss the Vortech or Tunze applications. I understand you are a fan of closed loops, but for the cost, electricity savings, easy mounting (Tunze in particular) and ability to adjust and reposition as the reef grows, or add flow as you need, you can't beat the Tunze's and Vortech pumps. I wouldn't dismiss them so quickly as I think many would argue that a closed loop is now a more antiquated solution with all the controllers/modes the Tunze's and Vortech's have. (Just my opinion)

Mike

I'm one of the people who doesn't want to see any pipes in the tank. I also like the ability to customize exactly where each in & out port is located in conjunction with rock work.

This video may not be the flow pattern you are looking for but it shows that you can pick the sweet spots and create a tailor made flow pattern that keeps detritus delicately floating around for coral polyps or the filtration to grab. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zWN8WFzlLI

As I mentioned earlier, powerheads can be designed to create end to end circular flow if they are positioned low in the tank with the sump return at the opposing end at the top. The overflow bow should be at the powerhead end on the end panel, preferably with no teeth for optimum surface area.
 
The closed loop vs. powerhead debate is just as passionate as the Mac vs. PC debate. I'm in the minority as a Mac user, and I'm fine with being in the minority as a closed loop proponent.

Well said!

And I am also a CL junky... For the record I have two of them in my 180gal in wall... Currently under reconstruction and hopefully using your cement mix posted earlier to boot!

There is simply no one best anything, other than water must be wet. Best advise I've gotten thus far. :) :)
 
Nice video
I like the way the output is positioned,downward 45degree angle. That just gave me an idea.


I'm one of the people who doesn't want to see any pipes in the tank. I also like the ability to customize exactly where each in & out port is located in conjunction with rock work.

This video may not be the flow pattern you are looking for but it shows that you can pick the sweet spots and create a tailor made flow pattern that keeps detritus delicately floating around for coral polyps or the filtration to grab. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zWN8WFzlLI

As I mentioned earlier, powerheads can be designed to create end to end circular flow if they are positioned low in the tank with the sump return at the opposing end at the top. The overflow bow should be at the powerhead end on the end panel, preferably with no teeth for optimum surface area.
 
There is simply no one best anything. Best advise I've gotten thus far. :) :)

Except for advice right :)

The problem arises when people apply a technology superficially. You cannot simply drop in a powerhead and check flow off or your list. Setting up a closed loop is even more specific. If you don't know what you are doing you cold have a flood and even worse flow dynamics.

A lot of the people who have traded in their closed loops had undersized intakes, intakes that were too close to the sand, small strainers that were allowed to clog, undersized plumbing (in & out), too many elbows & tees, poorly designed pumps, and poorly planned output/effluent orientation. Sequence Reef Flo pumps have a really poor pressure rating and have discouraged many CL owners. That 3600 GPH Dart pump is cut down to 1500 GPH by the time you push it through all those pipes and fittings (friction loss, not head loss). The limited selection in (magnet coupled) chemical pumps has made powerheads a viable choice for many reefers. Energy savings is another plus, but one that DC CL pumps also offer.

Oceansmotions wave devices are a great tool, but coupled with a VFD you really have something. I like penductors/eductors but for the return line rather than a closed loop as there is a trade off with back pressure loss and venturi gain.

I think the future trend will be laminar flow and pseudokreisels. Laminar flow can be achieved with an intake and return plenum at each end of the tank. A sheet of PVC or acrylic with many holes can be fed or drained by a sealed bulkhead for laminar flow. Adding rounded interior seams to a glass or acrylic tank will help create a pseudokreisel. Having your rock on "footings" will also help water pass under, along the bottom, and back up the front panel. An ornamental cement or foam bottom is also a good tool.

Another method I would like to try is a plenum at the bottom of the tank whereby a series of holes pumps water straight up to the surface zone by zone. This would keep detritus rising and falling in each zone in sequence.

The work of Ken Feldman on protein skimmer efficacy or lack there of is leading us closer to closed systems without sumps. If protein skimmers can only remove 20% of the TOC (total organic carbon), then maybe we should scrap them entirely and spend the (protein skimmer, surface skimmer, sump, plumbing, & return pump) money on better resources. That's a lot of money and energy that can be redirected to more efficient means of TOC reduction. Maybe our protein skimmers should be out in the garage with our bioballs and exercise equipment (as seen on TV):)

We can cut down on noise, energy consumption, and floods. We can start sleeping in the same beds as our wives and girlfriends and maybe even go on vacation. Protein skimmers are the only device that require us to have a sump. Sumps add to the system volume, but with a new automated water change system and frequent carbon use who needs it. You can still have extra system volume in a more convenient sealed drum and even grow benthic/cryptic inverts in them. You can take them offline and refill them for hassle-free water changes.

Refugiums can be run very efficiently in sealed canisters like the OceanClear model. I use a clear acrylic top for better light penetration. Ozone can still be added with a reactor or venturi. Heating, cooling, UV, and chemical media are all better served in a closed (vacuum) system. Header tanks (a filter tank located above the display tank) are another viable option.

Beneficial bacteria, calcium, and live food that has been depleted by protein skimmers can be kept in the food chain to feed our reef denizens. Skimmerless tanks have proven to have fewer cases of HHLE (hole in the head lateral erosion) and even reverse the symptoms of infected fish. There are also many reports of better polyp extension.
 
Just an experience of mine. I have cut my skimmer off for longer than 3 months at a time, and while not seeing any good effects in the tank, I also did not see any bad effects. I think this research may be onto something. I also must say that I have a rather high bioload, with no corals to help eat any nutrients.
 
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