Crammed asian tank filtration

[MrTuskfish]

I'm sure many of you have sen various videos of the Asian tanks that are just crammed with large fish and very little else. Any idea what the do for filtration? Mechanical, ammonia, and nitrite are easy to control. But, what about nitrate? Are they using sulfur denitrators or just not worrying about nitrate (very possible)?

 

[JamesJR]

I really doubt they do much in the way to worry about nitrate as it isn't toxic to fish. Running sulfur denitrators would be serious overkill for something that isn't even something to be concerned about. Many very nice fish only tanks consistently run high nitrates even up into the 60-80 ppm range without any ill effects on the fish.

 

[Stuart60611]

I also very much doubt that many of these systems are in fact on-going and rather are often staged just for the picture or video.

 

[Recty]

I saw a big "asian style" tank down in California, it was a 200g tank with TONS and TONS of fish in it, I mean it was crammed full. I asked the guy about the setup (this was in a restaurant) and he took me into the back room. There was a large sump back there, a big tub basically. He said it was almost 1000 gallons, it looked more like 750 gallons to me but at that size it's really hard to tell. There was a massive protein skimmer beside it, plus a lot of equipment down in the sump, tons of bioballs and lots of filter floss.

Anyway, this was a couple years ago, before I really got into saltwater, but it still sticks out in my mind. I think a lot of the very overstocked tanks you see have large sumps keeping the water volume a lot higher than the actual display tank would lead you to believe. I dont think they were worried at all about anything but keeping the salinity at 1.017 and keeping the temp up, they did regular big water changes and the fish out in the display looked amazing, they were all very colorful and I hate to say it but "happy" looking. They all just swam around aimlessly, they werent fighting or picking on each other and he fed right in front of me which made them all go crazy but then they went back to just calmly swimming.

Anyway, I'm not saying it is right or ethical or whatever to do, but I do think it can be done long term if you have good enough filtration.

 

[kirkaz]

I really doubt they do much in the way to worry about nitrate as it isn't toxic to fish. Running sulfur denitrators would be serious overkill for something that isn't even something to be concerned about. Many very nice fish only tanks consistently run high nitrates even up into the 60-80 ppm range without any ill effects on the fish.

60-80 is nothing, I wouldn't even consider that high in a FO tank. I would guess there are tanks with nitrates up to 1,000ppm or more with no ill effects to fish.

 

[MrTuskfish]

60-80 is nothing, I wouldn't even consider that high in a FO tank. I would guess there are tanks with nitrates up to 1,000ppm or more with no ill effects to fish.

I agree completely with james JR and Kirkaz.
IMO, there may not be a bigger misconception in the hobby. There are threads on this forum almost daily ,about owners of FOWLR tanks having heart attacks because their FOWLR nitrates are 20 ppm. If anyone has a LFS with a permanent FOWLR display tank, test that water for nitrate. At least 80ppm, I'll bet. There are many hobbyists, whose opinions I value, that just don't go along with this. But there just isn't any evidence, other than anecdotal, that backs up the idea that nitrate hurts fish. I've made a big deal out of this for years and just have to bring it up once in a while. I've seen grow out tanks for homegrown clownfish that are so jammed that you can barely see the back of the tank; nitrates 200ppm+, and the fish thrive.

 

[palmer373]

recty why 1.017?

 

[Recty]

1.017 or somewhere around there, does a couple of things for you.

It's cheaper to replace water... you are using 35% less salt, and that adds up pretty fast.
Lower salt means the water can hold more oxygen, which is important if you're cramming a lot of fish in your tank.
And three, and in my mind the most important, low salinity seems to inhibit, if not eradicate, diseases like ich. Arguably, you could skip QT of your fish, which I think is a bad idea but it could be done. Maybe do a FW formalin dip or just a FW dip to get rid of fluke and then splash them right into the main tank. Again, I think it's a bad idea and I use quarantine to get my fish used to eating and healthy before I put them into the display, but it could be done.

Those are what I think the three main reasons are, I'm sure there are others.

Cons are your skimmer wont operate as well, and some people have linked low salinity to liver or else it was kidney problems in fish, but I'm pretty sure that's never been proven conclusively.

 

[Stuart60611]

High nitrates in a fowlr only are important because of the nuisance algae they feed. Generally, systems with high nitrates often have a major nuisance algae problem that even with abundant tangs and foxfaces cannot be adequately controled. I am sure there are a few systems with gigantic sumps that allow for the water volume and filtration necessary for these fish cramed systems like Recty described, but I just do not believe most of them are real systems. I have seen many videos of these systems on youtube. What I often observe in these videos are tanks so incredibly prestine that it is clear to me that the fish have not been in the system for any meaningful period time.

 

[Recty]

The other thing that could be happening is small amounts of copper being in the fish tank at all times, I know a lot of fish stores do that. It keeps all the algae killed, that is a very likely reason some of those tanks have no algae growth whatsoever and they look so pristine, the tank wont support any plant growth due to the copper levels.

 

[Sitarangi]

We have a 300g FO that has been running for 15 years at my LFS I work. It has about 40 pounds of liverock and plastic corals. It uses a 6" deep sand bed with an Jaubert plenum. It is an incredibly efficient biological filter. I do 10% water changes weekly and the nitrates stay under 40. I have to stay on top of it otherwise the 10 year old french angel and black tang get cloudy eye overnightl. It has a euroreef skimmer and a micron sock that is changed every day. I feed the living daylights out of it. The stock list is a french angel, black tang, hi-fin snapper, flame hawk, harlie tusk, coral rabbitfish, kubang damsels, and a zebra moray. Here's an lousy old pic, ill take a new one tomorrow. Even with the high bioload, the tank doesn't get a spec of algae.

 

[chasekwe]

Thanks for the real world example Sitarangi but, believe it or not, that isn't the level of bioload MrTuskfish is talking about when he says "crammed asian tank". These tanks are literally "crammed".

 

[geaux xman]

this dude from japan with his 50g tank. i had messaged him before on youtube. its a 3ft tank. emperor, blueface, koran, clarion, blue tang, clown.... all show sizes. he makes a video just about every week. i've seen videos dating back to early last yr with the same collection of fish.

http://www.youtube.com/user/SPmaxell#p/u/0/M_DRRsWLjuo

the koran looks ill in the video?

 

[MrTuskfish]

1.017 or somewhere around there, does a couple of things for you.

It's cheaper to replace water... you are using 35% less salt, and that adds up pretty fast.
Lower salt means the water can hold more oxygen, which is important if you're cramming a lot of fish in your tank.
And three, and in my mind the most important, low salinity seems to inhibit, if not eradicate, diseases like ich. Arguably, you could skip QT of your fish, which I think is a bad idea but it could be done. Maybe do a FW formalin dip or just a FW dip to get rid of fluke and then splash them right into the main tank. Again, I think it's a bad idea and I use quarantine to get my fish used to eating and healthy before I put them into the display, but it could be done.

Those are what I think the three main reasons are, I'm sure there are others.

Cons are your skimmer wont operate as well, and some people have linked low salinity to liver or else it was kidney problems in fish, but I'm pretty sure that's never been proven conclusively.

There is also the physical stress factor on the fish. Keeping fish at around 1.017 means lighter water. I'm not promoting the point, but that was the consideration. I kept fish at 1.017 or so for years. I've even heard & read accounts of folks who are convinced their fish are more active at this level. Sounds crazy, until you think about it. Mike Paletta's book 'The New Marine Aquarium" says that FOWLR tanks can be kept at 1.020 with no problem. If I remember right, earlier additions of his book explained the 'lighter water" theory.

 

[MrTuskfish]

There is also the physical stress factor on the fish. Keeping fish at around 1.017 means lighter water. I'm not promoting the point, but that was the consideration. I kept fish at 1.017 or so for years. I've even heard & read accounts of folks who are convinced their fish are more active at this level. Sounds crazy, until you think about it. Mike Paletta's book 'The New Marine Aquarium" says that FOWLR tanks can be kept at 1.020 with no problem. If I remember right, earlier additions of his book explained the 'lighter water" theory.

Too late to edit: All the drivel above is similar to my long-held, but totally unscientific, idea about Red Sea fish. I think most are hardier, more active and tougher partially because they are being kept in tanks with a lower SG than their Red Sea home. They have developed the ability to deal with the "heavier" (stupid term, but it works) water in the Red Sea, so just swimming in water with a lower SG is easier.

 

[Sonicblast12]

The other thing that could be happening is small amounts of copper being in the fish tank at all times, I know a lot of fish stores do that. It keeps all the algae killed, that is a very likely reason some of those tanks have no algae growth whatsoever and they look so pristine, the tank wont support any plant growth due to the copper levels.

I did not know this. Can this be a long term solution to persistent algae problems? And what would be the concentration to kill algae and not be detrimental to fish? (If such a number exists)

I love a sparkling clean look but can't ever seem to get there.

 

[lhm nole]

I did not know this. Can this be a long term solution to persistent algae problems? And what would be the concentration to kill algae and not be detrimental to fish? (If such a number exists)

I love a sparkling clean look but can't ever seem to get there.

Imo and experience not really a good idea my angels get hlle everytime I cooper and after I remove it it goes away also cyano has a tendency to grow in water with copper. To be copper tanks just look drabby doesnt have that crystal clear look

 

[Sonicblast12]

I agree completely with james JR and Kirkaz.
IMO, there may not be a bigger misconception in the hobby. There are threads on this forum almost daily ,about owners of FOWLR tanks having heart attacks because their FOWLR nitrates are 20 ppm. If anyone has a LFS with a permanent FOWLR display tank, test that water for nitrate. At least 80ppm, I'll bet. There are many hobbyists, whose opinions I value, that just don't go along with this. But there just isn't any evidence, other than anecdotal, that backs up the idea that nitrate hurts fish. I've made a big deal out of this for years and just have to bring it up once in a while. I've seen grow out tanks for homegrown clownfish that are so jammed that you can barely see the back of the tank; nitrates 200ppm+, and the fish thrive.

On this point, would there be any reason to stay away from a larger grain substrate in a FO tank? I've always stayed away because of nitrate concerns even though I prefer the look. I'm also tired of the sandstorm maintained by my humu and lei triggers.

 

[MrTuskfish]

Vacuum the substrate when you do WCs and you should be fine. I'm never going to suggest that anyone ignore nitrates, because of all the strong opinions. I agree with Bob Fenner, the lower the better; but he also acknowledges the fact that high nitrate seems to have no effect on fish. Its a huge, gray area---IMO.

 

[lhm nole]

Vacuum the substrate when you do WCs and you should be fine. I'm never going to suggest that anyone ignore nitrates, because of all the strong opinions. I agree with Bob Fenner, the lower the better; but he also acknowledges the fact that high nitrate seems to have no effect on fish. Its a huge, gray area---IMO.

I use the caribsea pink shell substrate and I vacuum 50 gallons a week with a python and use a mag 24 to return the water very easy to do and I love the fact I can vacuum versus sand of course I have a fowlr and never test for nitrates but I do not have any algae problems and all my fish look healthy only issue I had was using cupramine and my angels got hlle but after removing hlle is all but gone.