elegance coral
They call me EC
You trained your snails to syphon your sand???? Now that's amazing!!!!! I can't get the critters in my tank to do anything but eat and poo.
crushed coral vs sand
- Thread starter Wiggie
- Start date
You trained your snails to syphon your sand???? Now that's amazing!!!!! I can't get the critters in my tank to do anything but eat and poo.
elegance coral
They call me EC
I don't know anything about "reefflakes", but it's not the calcium carbonate based substrate that leads to elevated nitrate and phosphate. It's the accumulation of rotting organic matter in the substrate. If that organic matter is removed, it does not decompose and increase the nitrate and phosphate level in the water.
d0ughb0y
Active member
Exactly my point. So either the crushed coral being a nitrate factory is completely false, or the reefflakes is just overhyped and overpriced substrate where users do get nitrate problems but too embarrassed to admit it.
pmrossetti1
New member
You make a good point. But reeflakes is different than most crushed coral. cc usually has small crushed shells and things in it that have nooks and crannies that accumulate detritus. Reeflakes doesn't. It's grain size varies,It's not all 3.5mm.
here is a thread I wrote a month ago of why not to use crushed coral.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2044713
Don't make the mistake.
http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2044713
Don't make the mistake.
d0ughb0y
Active member
I have no doubt the substrate was your source of nitrates. but any substrate will have that problem in due time (its been only 2 weeks since you posted that thread, I would not jump to conclusion now and perhaps wait at least until 6 months and see what happens), and in general, the original problem occurred due to overfeeding or over stocking, and after running into nitrate problems and removing the substrate, one would generally not make that same mistake of overfeeding or overstocking as before, ergo, one conveniently blames the substrate as the cause of the nitrates. I can guarantee you that if there are no excess food, and the fish bioload is exported properly, regardless of substrate (there is no magic substrate), there will be no nitrate problem. I went bare bottom and still see some nitrates (so can't conveniently blame the substrate anymore), even with no overfeeding and overstocking. turns out the fish poop is settling to the bottom due to insufficient flow. as soon as I got all the fish poop out, nitrate got under control. getting good flow everywhere with no dead spot is very tricky. but it helps with no substrate as I am able to see any accumulation of fish poop right away. I can imagine with any substrate, if one can make sure there are no uneaten food, and all fish poop are dissolved (to be skimmed out) or exported, then there will be no nitrate problem.
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sporto0
New member
"I went bare bottom and I still see some nitrates"
Unless your tank has no waste producing inhabitants, there will always be "some" nitrates, nitrates & nitrogen gas are the end game of the water cycle. What is being discussed here is the potential for a serious build up of nitrate & phosphate producing gunk that ends up bringing on an epidemic of nuisance algae that can not be beaten back. While you are correct in all of your assertions about what caused those conditions in the first place, you are missing the fact that compacted sand does a far better job of keeping detritus on the surface where it can be consumed or blown into the water column & removed by a skimmer or filtration, where as crushed coral by its nature has far too many gaps, nooks & crannies that collect & make removal that much harder, even for the clean up crew it is much easier for them to sift through sand than it is crushed coral or any coarser type substrate. The arguement here is sand is BETTER than crushed coral, not that it will cure a nitrate problem. Those of us who have gone through this know, even when the main problem is identified, once the crushed substrate becomes foul, there is no other option but to remove it. You can gfo, refugiate,skimmate,vodka dosiate & algae scrubbiate until your blue or in this case green in the face, nothing works at this point.
Unless your tank has no waste producing inhabitants, there will always be "some" nitrates, nitrates & nitrogen gas are the end game of the water cycle. What is being discussed here is the potential for a serious build up of nitrate & phosphate producing gunk that ends up bringing on an epidemic of nuisance algae that can not be beaten back. While you are correct in all of your assertions about what caused those conditions in the first place, you are missing the fact that compacted sand does a far better job of keeping detritus on the surface where it can be consumed or blown into the water column & removed by a skimmer or filtration, where as crushed coral by its nature has far too many gaps, nooks & crannies that collect & make removal that much harder, even for the clean up crew it is much easier for them to sift through sand than it is crushed coral or any coarser type substrate. The arguement here is sand is BETTER than crushed coral, not that it will cure a nitrate problem. Those of us who have gone through this know, even when the main problem is identified, once the crushed substrate becomes foul, there is no other option but to remove it. You can gfo, refugiate,skimmate,vodka dosiate & algae scrubbiate until your blue or in this case green in the face, nothing works at this point.
DJ in WV
New member
I used crushed coral when i first got into the hobby in the 90's and it was a nightmare after 6 months. In my latest venture I build a 180 and used Marco fine agro and mixed it 50/50 with some agro alittle bigger than a pin head. This has worked alot better tho in the beginning fine agro with stay suspended in the wc with very little flow but after a few months as it is colonized with bacteria it all sticks together well and doesn't allow things to settle into the sandbed. Imo it has a nice natural look to it also.
d0ughb0y
Active member
I agree with everything you said, so no disagreement here, other than I did mention in my post (if you read it carefully) that "in due time", any substrate will have the same problem. which is exactly what you are saying that it will happen sooner with crushed coral. so we are saying essentially the same thing. I know it can happen to sand substrate, because that is what I had before.
the main point I am alluding to is, people will generally not tell you the whole story how the problem came about. then conveniently blame something else other than themselves for causing the problem. The part they conveniently omit is where they overstock or overfeed, and then then not do that anymore after changing the substrate, then concluding "oh, this must be a better substrate", but the actual solution is, in addition to replacing the substrate, is not overfeed and/or overstock. I also meant to point out the previous poster came to that conclusion only 2 weeks after switching substrate, which I think is too soon.
jcw
Active member
I have crushed coral substrate. This post makes me feel a little better.
Mine is thin. Maybe only 1-2" deep. Stays below the lower brace of the tank.
Maybe I should slowly remove some everyday until I'm only 1/2"-1" deep.
Why doesn't the bacteria get in the substrate like it does in live rock and process the nitrates? Or is it an issue lik you say of overfeeding or overloading the system?
sporto0
New member
Yes sir, & I agreed with you as well, no doubt that overstocking & overfeeding will cause a nitrate problem no matter what substrate you are using, but I will add this, I had crushed coral for 5 yrs, the first 4, I had no problems at all, the last year was a nightmare, I tried everything, if not for my extreme love for this hobby, I would have quit! I can honestly say, that I never overstocked or came close to overfeeding this tank, & I am a fanatical nutcase about maintenance, so just the build up over time became unmanageable. I have been reefkeeping since 1995 & have always used sand & never had these severe issues, I decided to try crushed coral on this tank & I learned the hard way, I don't think I could have done anything differently to prevent this from happening. Again, you are not wrong, but in my experience, crushed coral is not a good idea.
sporto0
New member
My conclusion is very clear, use a finer grade sand or go bare bottom, stay away from coarser type substrate, especially crushed coral. & never overstock, which in turn makes you overfeed in a reef tank.
elegance coral
They call me EC
You're only over feeding, if you feed more than your critters thrive on, and don't have adequate filtration/water changes to remove the waste created by the feeding. The accumulation of rot and decay in the substrate is not a sign of over feeding. It's a sign of under filtering, or poor maintenance. Regardless of the type of substrate being used. Some substrates just require more maintenance than others.
IMHO, there are two extremes. There's the really large "crushed coral" that traps huge quantities of organic matter, and demands near constant cleaning to keep the organic matter in check. (not my idea of a good time.) Then there's the really fine stuff, that doesn't trap organic matter nearly as fast, but it's nearly impossible to remove the rotting organic matter once it does accumulate in it. (This isn't pleasant to me either.) Somewhere in the middle, you have sand that is large enough to not blow around every time a fish swims by, doesn't accumulate rotting matter as fast as crushed coral, and is much easier to clean than fine sand. Rotting organic matter will accumulate in all substrates. Once it does, there's only two possible outcomes. It is either removed, or it decomposes and releases unwanted nutrients into the system. There's no other possible outcome. Me personally, I'd rather remove it before it rots, and fuels algae growth, causes health issues for my pets, or creates undue load on my filtration and maintenance schedule. That's just me though.
IMHO, there are two extremes. There's the really large "crushed coral" that traps huge quantities of organic matter, and demands near constant cleaning to keep the organic matter in check. (not my idea of a good time.) Then there's the really fine stuff, that doesn't trap organic matter nearly as fast, but it's nearly impossible to remove the rotting organic matter once it does accumulate in it. (This isn't pleasant to me either.) Somewhere in the middle, you have sand that is large enough to not blow around every time a fish swims by, doesn't accumulate rotting matter as fast as crushed coral, and is much easier to clean than fine sand. Rotting organic matter will accumulate in all substrates. Once it does, there's only two possible outcomes. It is either removed, or it decomposes and releases unwanted nutrients into the system. There's no other possible outcome. Me personally, I'd rather remove it before it rots, and fuels algae growth, causes health issues for my pets, or creates undue load on my filtration and maintenance schedule. That's just me though.
ok
i am gonna go with 3-5mm
http://www.sewatec.de/lng/en/korallenzucht-kz-coral-sand-aragonite-3-5-mm-46kg.html
Hope that i wont write back here that it doesnt work
i am gonna go with 3-5mm
http://www.sewatec.de/lng/en/korallenzucht-kz-coral-sand-aragonite-3-5-mm-46kg.html
Hope that i wont write back here that it doesnt work
d0ughb0y
Active member
that is all correct.
organics will turn into nitrates if not exported, so the key is to export it. (dissolved organics via skimmer, particulate organics via filter sock, or you must find a way to break up the particles, usually by water flow, and dissolve it). Even with bare bottom, I got nitrate issues, then realized the blenny poop is heavy and settles (tang and other herbivores would be similar) due to not having enough flow. So I also was not overfeeding nor overstocked, but simply, the fish poop just never got exported properly and kept accumulating. it is also possible that when some corals grow large, it will introduce some dead spots, hence will cause detritus to accumulate unnoticed, therefore causing the nitrate problem to show after a few years.
to replace the substrate and conclude after 2 weeks the old substrate is bad is a bit misleading, but does makes good tabloid style reading.
organics will turn into nitrates if not exported, so the key is to export it. (dissolved organics via skimmer, particulate organics via filter sock, or you must find a way to break up the particles, usually by water flow, and dissolve it). Even with bare bottom, I got nitrate issues, then realized the blenny poop is heavy and settles (tang and other herbivores would be similar) due to not having enough flow. So I also was not overfeeding nor overstocked, but simply, the fish poop just never got exported properly and kept accumulating. it is also possible that when some corals grow large, it will introduce some dead spots, hence will cause detritus to accumulate unnoticed, therefore causing the nitrate problem to show after a few years.
to replace the substrate and conclude after 2 weeks the old substrate is bad is a bit misleading, but does makes good tabloid style reading.
:ape::ape::ape:
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