Cryptic Sponge & Sea Squirt Filtration Methodology

Tagging along, I tried this with a Fluval 404 with all media removed and the flow dialed back. Within a few weeks all the baskets and the filter pad trays were covered in tube worms and sponges. It was pretty neat, but then the Fluval died.
 
I read the book and set up a cryptic refugium in 2001 but shortly later we moved and I haven't tried again.

There was one thing about Tyrees setups that struck me as different from the average hobbyist. His tanks were holding tanks for commercial coral distribution. As a result new organisms were introduced on a regular basis and diversity was always being replenished. In established reef systems diversity is always being reduced as stronger organisms survive and weaker organisms perish.

I still think the concept has merit but I would like to hear about experiences with the more static environment of the typical reef tank.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13373702#post13373702 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Neptune's Oasis
AgentSPS
if you are waiting for a reply from steve tyree
well you might be waiting for awhile... see below for when his last posting was made to this thread...


07/12/2001 10:37 PM

Steve Tyree
Premium Member

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Planet Earth
Occupation: Author, Publisher, Web Site Manager, Reef Farmer, Coral Reef Importer, Coral Reef Distributor, Lecturer
Posts: 133




i bumped this thread
bec of the good info in it and hoped to get some good dialogue going!

your sump/design looks well thought out
where did you get the idea for making it that way?... very interesting design!

regards


Haha oops failed to notice that. I did think it was odd to see Steve 'back' on RC.

As for the sump design, I did put a lot of hours into the design. It is, however, essentially the same idea as a wet dry sump from a design perspective. Only difference is that the tower has no 'dry' part as its filled with water.
 
Although I did not read Steve's work, I heard the story of how Steve was inspired to research cryptic zones and recalled his pile o' rubble sump back in 95 when I used to visit. (Steve that was a complement so don't blow me up :D) Steve definitely had something going on in that tank that others could not seem to achieve. For whatever reason, I have always associated a good portion of that tank's success to that sump full of rock.

I am in the process of setting up a new tank and I wanted to incorporate a cryptic component to my sump. Reading this thread, I think I got most of the idea with the exception of the low flow part. I believe, however, that there will still be areas in the rubble pile that will not receive much flow. Hopefully it will be enough to achieve the goal. I invite Steve and others to comment.

The design is rather simple. I created a tower that will be filled with Tonga rubble. The walls of the fuge are smoked acrylic and the lid and back wall of the fuge are black acrylic to block out light. There are two perforated trays inside the fuge. The first one rests about 3" off the bottom. The second is 3" from the top and rests above the rubble pile. The tank overflow drain pipe runs through the rubble pile and lets out under the pile in the 3" gap between the bottom and first tray. Water must flow up through the pile in order to exit out the drain at the top of the tower. Hopefully there will not be so much bubbles and turbidity that it will inhibit cryptic sponge growth.
How did this sump work out for you? I'd be interested in an update telling us how it went :).
 
I'd be interested if this thread started up again. I've had an cryptic fuge for a while now and wouldn't mind hearing other experiences.
 
I'd be interested if this thread started up again. I've had an cryptic fuge for a while now and wouldn't mind hearing other experiences.

FWIW, I had a 18 Gallon black box/rubble pile remote fuge in my old 75 system. I seeded with Garf Grunge and some ball sponges and pods. It ran for about a year. It grew sponges & pods along with tube worms and some other unidentified slimy reddish-brown and white organisms I assume was a sponge. I'd say it was a success... BUT... I saw no change in my DT. My new system doesn't have a fuge at all.

I also remember several here at RC that run rock in Brute containers that may have some cryptic characteristics.
 
Wow. Some how Reef Central tagged me about this old thread. No reason to rehash this old info. Science has progressed quite a bit since then. We now know the Sponge nutrient cycle is very important to tropical reef platforms. If you don't have cryptic sponges, you are not reefing. Lol. Hard to keep em out anyways.
 
Been awhile. The old speculation in the Sponge consumption area has scientific backing now. And while discovering that consumption, scientists have revealed a nutrient feed back loop. Natural tropical reefs tend to be inorganic nutrient poor. So the Sponge Nutrient Loop is crucial. That just adds another dimension to the filtration method. Just did a new updated book a year and a half ago. Price was lowered by a couple bucks recently. There is a buying link on the web page and it is only in pdf format. Basically an eBook.

http://www.reeffarmers.com/newbook.htm
 
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Thanks Steve.

The link didn't work directly but I figured it out and got it :

http://www.reeffarmers.com/newbook.htm

I got both volumes.

I have a very successful reef and sponges naturally grow on and inside the rockwork I made out of PVC and concrete. I use the hollow PVC pipe as skeleton and cover it with a fabric of concrete, then drill holes to allow water to go in and out of the hidden hollow network.

I had no plans to build habitats for sponges. I was doing it to create open structures with the least and lightest media. First pods and worms used the holes heavily, then feather dusters and sponges. I might cross-section when I take it apart.

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/D3F68D51-6560-4F52-BBF6-3742A8D52E3C_zpsthhrz5v9.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/D3F68D51-6560-4F52-BBF6-3742A8D52E3C_zpsthhrz5v9.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo D3F68D51-6560-4F52-BBF6-3742A8D52E3C_zpsthhrz5v9.jpg"></a>

Corals growing out of the water and little protected zones of algae no one can get to:

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4BB5E410-F35E-47F6-915C-3ADC831CCDCF_zpsywfdupa3.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4BB5E410-F35E-47F6-915C-3ADC831CCDCF_zpsywfdupa3.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4BB5E410-F35E-47F6-915C-3ADC831CCDCF_zpsywfdupa3.jpg"></a>

But overall very healthy

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/EBD4BBD5-E2CE-4F27-BE68-37C9D08C3EC7_zpsx6vka6x1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/EBD4BBD5-E2CE-4F27-BE68-37C9D08C3EC7_zpsx6vka6x1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo EBD4BBD5-E2CE-4F27-BE68-37C9D08C3EC7_zpsx6vka6x1.jpg"></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4A261F16-3008-4CFA-B046-391D6D9C3977_zps6ftrjkvz.jpg"></a>

I don't run a skimmer but I have a large settling filter/algae scrubber and a large fresh air injector. I don't export anything- I just recycle all the algae back through my fish... settling filter just creates a worm and pod friendly habitat.
 
Thanks for the link correction. In Volume 2 we defined the Filter Feeder Zone, which basically is composed of both the Semi-Exposed and Semi-Cryptic zones. Sounds like your hidden flow through zone is some where on that scale. Especially if the suspension filter feeders showed up first. What kind of flow did you have through the crypto area ? Does it have open ends ? Were there coralline growing in that area. Images would be cool. You just got all my images. Lol. Thanks.
 
. . . If you don't have cryptic sponges, you are not reefing. Lol. . . .

Here Here! Couldn't agree with you more! It's been fascinating seeing how research like Jasper de Goeij's has shown how correct you were so many years ago thinking sponges are so essential! Now we have a better idea of some of the roles DOC (Disolved Organic Carbon) is playing it's very intriguing these sponges are much better at removing it than bacteria
 
Good points Timfish, but don't count bacteria out yet. We still do not knowexactly how the Sponge captures the dissolved organic. Only that it gets consumed. Many of the cryptic cave sponges have been found to possess high internal bacterial densities. So bacteria are involved one way or the other with the cryptic cave sponges. There is still believed to also be a direct way for the sponge to catch or filter the dissolved organic. Sponges are good at capturing bacteria too. So basically you lower pelagic bacterial densities and increase internal sponge bacterial densities. Sponges have many symbionts living inside their tissue. And the internal tissue surface area of most sponges is vast as well.
 
The ends are mixed, some open some closed.. but there is almost no measurable flow except through the action of the organisms that move in and out of the drilled holes.

Truth be told, I had only planned to use the holes as anchors for coral placement using solid airline tubing. But over time, the vast majority just became access pathways for pods in and out of the hollow PVC.

They're completely encrusted with all kinds of growths outside including corraline. Yellow, pink, white and brown sponges in the dark regions. They don't look like the usual ball or tree sponges though. They're encrusting and form webs or filaments mostly.
 
Here's the build thread with pics

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2391044&highlight=clothcrete&page=14

Here's what it used to look like

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/FD5D86D4-104F-4652-AB51-48F7FF0CB240_zps14dy2uzr.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/FD5D86D4-104F-4652-AB51-48F7FF0CB240_zps14dy2uzr.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo FD5D86D4-104F-4652-AB51-48F7FF0CB240_zps14dy2uzr.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/96CAF556-78A0-41A5-9BC7-D6FA40FA99BD_zps1qdnw9lt.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/96CAF556-78A0-41A5-9BC7-D6FA40FA99BD_zps1qdnw9lt.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 96CAF556-78A0-41A5-9BC7-D6FA40FA99BD_zps1qdnw9lt.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/1E4A1C36-0A60-4AC6-A175-4366D0BD81CA_zpsuitdvpg4.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/1E4A1C36-0A60-4AC6-A175-4366D0BD81CA_zpsuitdvpg4.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 1E4A1C36-0A60-4AC6-A175-4366D0BD81CA_zpsuitdvpg4.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/613DCD40-FB3E-45C8-A674-86F41DFEF5AB_zps7i7sbkaq.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/613DCD40-FB3E-45C8-A674-86F41DFEF5AB_zps7i7sbkaq.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 613DCD40-FB3E-45C8-A674-86F41DFEF5AB_zps7i7sbkaq.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/06E64819-EDAC-4854-A980-12398F097E39_zpsxkldjn5t.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/06E64819-EDAC-4854-A980-12398F097E39_zpsxkldjn5t.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 06E64819-EDAC-4854-A980-12398F097E39_zpsxkldjn5t.jpg"/></a>

And an example of the guts

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/5DC13890-5F54-423E-8C20-C76B1C4436B1_zpsgjtul7x1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/5DC13890-5F54-423E-8C20-C76B1C4436B1_zpsgjtul7x1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 5DC13890-5F54-423E-8C20-C76B1C4436B1_zpsgjtul7x1.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/E3FA8DD0-4629-4897-8AD1-AA31D7AD50DE_zpsoo76phpd.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/E3FA8DD0-4629-4897-8AD1-AA31D7AD50DE_zpsoo76phpd.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo E3FA8DD0-4629-4897-8AD1-AA31D7AD50DE_zpsoo76phpd.jpg"/></a>

<a href="http://s1062.photobucket.com/user/karimwassef/media/4D2580AC-63EE-40EA-912D-5CC6F3EE8BFD_zpsblx28q3h.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1062.photobucket.com/albums/t496/karimwassef/4D2580AC-63EE-40EA-912D-5CC6F3EE8BFD_zpsblx28q3h.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4D2580AC-63EE-40EA-912D-5CC6F3EE8BFD_zpsblx28q3h.jpg"/></a>
 
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Great thread, I remember well. Hi Steve! Nice work Karim!!!!
I have a small 130 gallon system started 9 months ago and got see sponges from Dave Botwin with regards to this important topic! Keep up the good work!

Joe
 
Good points Timfish, but don't count bacteria out yet. . l.

You're preaching to the choir Steve. :D Just like it's easier to say "coral" than it is "coral holobiont" when referring to a coral and it's species unique microbial assemblage it's easier to say "sponge" than "sponge-microbe association". I agree the importance of bacteria in maintaining healthy reef ecosystems cannot be overstated.

What I was referring to with regards to sponges and DOC was de Goeij's experiments showing cryptic sponges are removing in about 30 minutes the organic carbon that bacterioplankton need in 19 days to remove.
 
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