Cryptic Zone Filtration

[jacksok]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9176701#post9176701 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guntercb
I think every "filter sytem" has to have an export. What do you end up exporting from you cyptic filters?

Thanks,
Chris

Thats a very good point.

So far it doesn't seem to have been an issue for me as it doesn't look obviously overcrowded and there still seems to be a good flow through the area. I don't know to what extent some of the zooplankton living in around the sponges might be acting as an export/recycling mechanism? There certainly seems to be a lot of activity when you look closely enough.

Regards,

Keith

 

[dendro982]

I have similar turnicates and sponges appearance in my relatively low-light tanks, 25x turnover:

The white big sponge is on the left.
More close-ups from different tanks (all are well fed, relatively dirty and low light):

Some were bought on a purpose.

 

[Driftwood]

Why would there need to be an export if the nutrient were converted to a harmless substance?

Dave

 

[guntercb]

Dave,

I am not a biologist but if the nutrients are being taken up as a biomass be it sponges or bacteria. Eventually that biomass will die. When this happens I would think that the nutrients will be sent back into the bulk water.

In a refugium one can harvest the algae. You are removing the algae along with the nutrients that the consumed from your system. But there is no talk of harvesting or removing anything from the cryptic zones.

I wonder if we can get more detail on this on what ends up happening in the long run with a cryptic zone? Does the cyptic zone do something that makes a skimmer work better? If so than this is export? Does the cyptic zone convert the nutrients to a gas that escapes? If the nutrients do not leave the system I think there will be an issue in the long run.

Thanks,
Chris

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not under the impression that the "cryptic zone" does much or does it very efficiently at all. Sponges are VERY slow growers and do not gain much biomass. The same can be said about the tunicates and fan worms. Of course they can offer other levels of filtration (other than absorbing organics and growing larger) but I am not sold on the idea. The same space could be used for other more efficient types of filtration. The argument could be made that this is "just one more spoke in the wheel" but I do not buy that either.

Why do I have a "cryptic zone"? Well because it grew in my sump Do I think it helps? Sure, stuff is growing there so it must be doing something. The questions is simply "how much" is it doing I have no reason to remove it or change the setup in any way and would not begin to know how to measure the effect of having or removing it. To me it is just something else to look at.

 

[Driftwood]

guntercb: We as humans consume nutrients and burn them as fuel for our activities. Yes we accumulate biomass but our biomass does not equal the nutrients we take in. Also, when we die other organisms consume out nutrients and convert those. What export does the planet earth have? None, it builds up mass from carbon based life growing, consuming, and dying. Not every byproduct is a nutrient. That is why it is important for us to figure out how to build as complete of an ecosystem as possible.

Dave

 

[salty joe]

If I remember correctly, Steve Tyree mentioned that sponges filter out pathogenic bacteria.

 

[mr.wilson]

You took the words right out of my mouth/hands Driftwood. I had the same human analogy in mind. At 190 pounds and 39 years of age, I've got a long way to go, and I certainly hope that my impact here on earth is greater than my death weight.

Ecosystems are much more than simple in & out boxes. The "what goes in, must come out" law is just one of many.

Reef tanks function on a much more stable level than fish only tanks, due to the higher order ecosystem in place. Every living organism in your system has a job, and no, it's not get fat and get harvested, that's a pig farm you're thinking of.

You can maintain a successful tank with no export at all (including water changes). Assimilation is carried out on every level of the hierarchy. You just have to strike a balance. The whole point of a benthic or cryptic zone is to provide the missing parts of the ecosystem that are necessary to remove residuals of biological processes (nitrate, phosphate, silicate etc.).

Chemical filtration and nutrient export are wonderful things, but they're nothing without biological filtration (in the true sence of the term).

 

[guntercb]

Driftwood and Mr.Wilson,

I see what you are saying, but I still havesome questions. The earth is a closed system. No one up in heaven is throwing us food everyday. In other words what is here stays here and nothing gets added.

But in our tanks we tend to feed them daily or everyso often. We are adding to our tanks. If you never feed our tank or added additives only pure water to make up for evaporation I would agree. But must of us don't. We keep adding food/nutrients and I believe these must be exported in some way.

Cheers,
Chris

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9188318#post9188318 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by guntercb
Driftwood and Mr.Wilson,

I see what you are saying, but I still havesome questions. The earth is a closed system. No one up in heaven is throwing us food everyday. In other words what is here stays here and nothing gets added.

But in our tanks we tend to feed them daily or everyso often. We are adding to our tanks. If you never feed our tank or added additives only pure water to make up for evaporation I would agree. But must of us don't. We keep adding food/nutrients and I believe these must be exported in some way.

Cheers,
Chris

I'm not disputing the value of nutrient export. My comment was only in defense of biological filtration, in the true sense of the term.

Biological filtration, in all of its' forms, is the primary means of maintaining good water quality and an ecological balance of nutrients. Nutrient export is a completely different beast, of less significance.

My powers fall short of the ability to completely balance a closed ecosystem. The earth itself is struggling to maintain a balance, thanks to our efforts over the past 100 years.

I don't do water changes, but I hold protein skimming, the use of carbon & ion exchange resins, and macro algae farming as integral parts of a successful reef tank. These methods of export are complimentary to benthic invertebrate culture.

The tragic flaw in Steve Tyrees system is that it has no export. You can run such a system successfully, but the balance is too delicate for most people to manage, and aesthetics are compromised.

 

[Driftwood]

The suns energy is converted to tons of biomass everyday on Earth as photosynthetic organisms grow. That is not a closed system, it is similar to our tanks with plenty of added nutrients and nothing or next to nothing exported.

Dave

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9188757#post9188757 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Driftwood
The suns energy is converted to tons of biomass everyday on Earth as photosynthetic organisms grow. That is not a closed system, it is similar to our tanks with plenty of added nutrients and nothing or next to nothing exported.

Dave

Well said. I think a lot of people forget that aquarium lighting is a form of nutrient import.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Heh?

Lighting is by no means a form of nutrient import. Light only provides the energy needed to power the process of converting food into usable energy or biomass.

With regards to the planet vs or tanks and "closed systems". Our captive reefs come nowhere close. Sorry guys but this conversation is starting to drift towards wild speculation based on some very liberal generalizations about energy and "biomass".

 

[BeanAnimal]

Heh?

Lighting is by no means a form of nutrient import. Light only provides the energy needed to power the process of converting food into usable energy or biomass.

With regards to the planet vs or tanks and "closed systems". Our captive reefs come nowhere close. Sorry guys but this conversation is starting to drift towards wild speculation based on some very liberal generalizations about energy and "biomass".

 

[Driftwood]

I think you are misunderstanding a general example for speculation. I merely used the human body to illustrate how an organism does not add up to the nutrients they consume. And I used the earth as a system to show how not every system has an export. Neither of these points really have anything to do with the duplex system so saying our conversation is drifting isn't really accurate, we are merely trying to help another hobbiest to understand a point about export.

Dave

 

[greenbean36191]

Sponges reduce excess nutrients without residual nitrate as experienced with the bacteria in the nitrogen cycle.

How do sponges being kept in the dark manage that stunt?

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9190058#post9190058 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by greenbean36191
How do sponges being kept in the dark manage that stunt?

Sponges do not produce nitrate as a byproduct. They primarily consume bacteria, and zooplankton. They are able to reduce compounds before they enter the nitrogen cycle, which would otherwise leave a residual of nitrate.

 

[mr.wilson]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9188976#post9188976 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Heh?

Lighting is by no means a form of nutrient import. Light only provides the energy needed to power the process of converting food into usable energy or biomass.

With regards to the planet vs or tanks and "closed systems". Our captive reefs come nowhere close. Sorry guys but this conversation is starting to drift towards wild speculation based on some very liberal generalizations about energy and "biomass".

Carbohydrates are the chief nutrient source on a reef. They are manufactured by algae through photosynthesis. The suns energy is the root source of this process. There is no single import that has a greater effect on an aquarium.

You are taking things out of context and losing the point. A valid question was asked, "do all forms of filtration require an export"? My answer was no. I haven't heard a response to the contrary.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I fully understand what sunlight is and what carbohydrates are. That still does not make the SUN a nutrient import I have not lost the point and not taken things out of context. We keep running in circles around the same bush.

Personally, I did not say sponges do not do "anything" as I am sure they do "something". The question (to me) is just how much.

 

[Driftwood]

I do not think we have the means to measure this. Same with a plennum, skimmer, ozone, or any other of the methods we use. I think that people have ideas, mostly based on observing nature, and put them into practice. If it works out well then others will follow.

I have seen things in my time in this hobby that makes me think that sponges are beneficial to water quality in my tanks and in others. I am trying this as a test to see if providing a home for them is a worthwhile idea.

We are pretty much just discussing our ideas here, not trying to convince people this is the way to go. If this system is beneficial then we will have to measure it by the stories told here along with pictures of mature systems.

Dave