Cryptocarans (ich)?

[Red Eyed Reefer]

What I am looking for is sharp, salt like "bumps" (parasite is under the skin) as opposed to fluffy externally attached lymphocystis. At the resolution provided, I simply cannot tell.

Correct on not being able to determine that, it's not your eyes

The camera lense's focal point isn't up to par - I'd imagine - to be able to get those bumps into full resolution at the distance the picture was taken.

All I can see is just the presence of a blurry white spot, no real definition..

OP I know it is hard to get pictures of fish, but does your camera have an auto focus or focus lock feature? You could try to get the spots to focus, but with a tang that might just be a losing battle..

 

[Jadexg]

Yea, these shots are my autofocus lining up its best, me firing off about 10-15 rapid exposures, and hoping to find 1 or 2 that are about right with focus. There are some tricks to increasing focal depth that I might try, but this bugger moves around fast.

As to how ich progresses: I'll take more photos, but the tang now has a few raised white spots on body, lots of dark spots where the previous white spots were, and lots of white spots on the clear parts of his pectoral fins. Can/does ich present in those very thin pectoral fin tissues? If not, what might that indicate?

Thanks again for all the help.

 

[Jadexg]

To update this:
We dis-assembled the display tank to remove our fish,
we moved all fish to a hospital/quarantine tank
we treated said tank with cupramine at full dose for 30+ days
fish showed no signs of illness
did a water change lowering cupramine levels to 1/2 in HT for ~3weeks
fish showed no signs of illness
did another water change to take cupramine to 1/4 theraputic level
fish showed no signs of illness
placed cuprasorb bag in HT to remove last traces of cupramine
waited with fallow DT to day 72
moved fish to DT, and observed that they were symptom free
2 days later, the tang clearly has ich.

Short of nuking my DT with cupramine, anybody have any suggestions?

 

[Dr. Reef]

To newbies, I usually recommend 4 weeks of cupramine at 0.5mq/l then observe for 2 weeks without and again 4 weeks of cupramine for second round. After that observe another 2 weeks putting your fallow time about 12 weeks.
You can give it a try again or try hypo salinity.

Note: make sure to keep running cupramine at 0.5mg/l for at least 2 weeks after last Ich has disappeared. That includes unseen ich inside the gills which will be the last to go. This part is where most newbies fail. Observe breathing patterns and when fish starts breathing normal that's when unseen ich has gone.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

To update this:

2 days later, the tang clearly has ich.

First of all...I am sorry. It must have sucked. Your experience makes me want to go back to using Coppersafe that's been discontinued.

 

[snorvich]

To newbies, I usually recommend 4 weeks of cupramine at 0.5mq/l then observe for 2 weeks without and again 4 weeks of cupramine for second round. After that observe another 2 weeks putting your fallow time about 12 weeks.
You can give it a try again or try hypo salinity.

Note: make sure to keep running cupramine at 0.5mg/l for at least 2 weeks after last Ich has disappeared. That includes unseen ich inside the gills which will be the last to go. This part is where most newbies fail. Observe breathing patterns and when fish starts breathing normal that's when unseen ich has gone.

Or you can do tank transfer for 12 days and avoid the problem completely.

 

[Deinonych]

To update this:
We dis-assembled the display tank to remove our fish,
we moved all fish to a hospital/quarantine tank
we treated said tank with cupramine at full dose for 30+ days
fish showed no signs of illness
did a water change lowering cupramine levels to 1/2 in HT for ~3weeks
fish showed no signs of illness
did another water change to take cupramine to 1/4 theraputic level
fish showed no signs of illness
placed cuprasorb bag in HT to remove last traces of cupramine
waited with fallow DT to day 72
moved fish to DT, and observed that they were symptom free
2 days later, the tang clearly has ich.

Short of nuking my DT with cupramine, anybody have any suggestions?

How often did you test the copper levels? If the level fell below the minimum therapeutic level (~0.35mg/L) at any time, the parasite could have survived. Because if this, it's recommended to test for copper once a day, preferably before lights out (since that's when the parasites emerge from the cysts).

I agree with Steve, though...do tank transfer and you're done in 12 days. You'll still need to pull all the fish out of the DT and leave it fallow for 72 days, though (sorry).

 

[Jadexg]

I kept the copper at .5mg/l with daily tests until I began lowering and observing. Additionally, seachem indicates that .2mg/l is a minimum theraputic dose, so the fish were in theraputic levels of copper for well over 6 weeks (which, as I understand it, is as long as many people leave the tank fallow).

I obviously cannot be certain, but watching the fish in the QT/HT, observing them when we transferred, and watching them after first having them in the DT, I am as certain as I can be that the fish were parasite-free when they got back into the DT. That means that an ich cyst or two survived the fallow period in my DT/sump. The fish behavior changed drastically 2 days after reintroduction, with the tang acting aggressively and flashing (the first symptoms that appeared last time). He was not showing those behaviors in the QT/HT, which was below theraputic copper levels for ~4 weeks, and totally absent measurable copper for ~2weeks.

My sand bed is now finally well established, and I have a few corals glued to and spreading along rocks, so nuking the DT seems like a real waste.

Snorvich, I've read your posts on doing TT, but I don't know how you transfer the fish so easily. It's a huge process for us, particularly in and out of the DT's rockwork and corals. I'm open to any and every suggestion; as I hate the idea of just letting this run its course and kill the tang and foxface.

 

[Jadexg]

As an aside, since I'm becoming resigned to another 72-day fallow period (might go 100 just for my own personal sanity), what can I do to keep my macroalgae and cleanup crew working well while the tank is fallow? I noticed that through this fallow period the hermit crab population declined pretty strongly, and my macroalgae refugium is in rough shape, likely due to the lack of nitrates/trace ammonia. Anybody have experience with keeping these systems thriving sans fish?

-Thanks again for the help.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

As an aside, since I'm becoming resigned to another 72-day fallow period (might go 100 just for my own personal sanity),

I don't think 72 days is necessary. Most people recommend this timeframe based on a study showing crypto's ability to survive that long.
However, this fallow period applies to colder water environments where water temperature is in the mid 50s and 60s degrees Fahrenheit. If you try to mimic normal tropical reef, crypto's cycle is half that time, in many cases shorter than that.

 

[Deinonych]

As an aside, since I'm becoming resigned to another 72-day fallow period (might go 100 just for my own personal sanity), what can I do to keep my macroalgae and cleanup crew working well while the tank is fallow? I noticed that through this fallow period the hermit crab population declined pretty strongly, and my macroalgae refugium is in rough shape, likely due to the lack of nitrates/trace ammonia. Anybody have experience with keeping these systems thriving sans fish?

-Thanks again for the help.

You can "ghost feed" the tank small amounts of flake or pellet food every couple of days to keep the biofilter active.

I don't think 72 days is necessary. Most people recommend this timeframe based on a study showing crypto's ability to survive that long.
However, this fallow period applies to colder water environments where water temperature is in the mid 50s and 60s degrees Fahrenheit. If you try to mimic normal tropical reef, crypto's cycle is half that time, in many cases shorter than that.

I agree that 72 days is probably not necessary, but it reduces the likelihood of a cyst surviving to near zero. Since there is no way to test for crypto in a tank, it's the best way to swing the odds in one's favor.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Also, I would refrain from adding new inverts, love rock or any other live organism during the fallow period.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Also, I would refrain from adding new inverts, live rock or any other live organism during the fallow period.

 

[Jadexg]

.......
I did add a new set of clean-up crew about 3 wks ago...

Is there a realistic chance that was my mistake? I sourced them from reefcleaners, who have been awesome in my experience....

 

[snorvich]

.......
I did add a new set of clean-up crew about 3 wks ago...

Is there a realistic chance that was my mistake? I sourced them from reefcleaners, who have been awesome in my experience....

Anything wet which comes from a system containing fish can be problematic and should be quarantined.

 

[CoralsAddiction]

Anything wet which comes from a system containing fish can be problematic and should be quarantined.

Agree. If you want to maximize the chance of total eradication you should not put anything wet in your system without QT during fallow period.

 

[Deinonych]

Agree. If you want to maximize the chance of total eradication you should not put anything wet in your system without QT during fallow period.

+2

I had a cyst ride in on a coral frag once, so everything gets a trip through QT now.

 

[Whistl3r]

For what it is worth John tells me he does not keep fish in his system. Macros and inverts only.

I just went through this process with my tank so I feel your pain. The hard one is obviously getting them out of the DT, for that I used a trap and spent 2 days gathering everyone one at a time and moving them into another tank prepped for them as part of TT. Once I had everyone moved I performed the first real TT and started the clock.

I used a pair of 50g for the TT simply due to the number of animals I have. I found the transfer pretty easy by using a clear acrylic bottom from a "critter keeper" box like you keep hamsters/mice in. Just place it in one side of the tank and guide your fish in with your other hand.