Culturing your own Phytoplankton

[Anthony Calfo]

Fred... with all due respect, can you separate your personal skepticism of Reed product critics from what seem to be real questions from real consumers such as myself?

If so... you are welcome to stay.

If unsure... do consider that your bias does not seem any different than others here. You could be called a "Reed product fan" as much as you/we/anyone could call purplehaze a "reed product critic." I'd like to believe that most of us here are neither. Just curious consumers.

If not... I'd ask you if you are then saying that none of us have valid points here in stating our confusion (same as purplehazes' in many ways) about the aforementioned issues.

Put another way, are you stating that we should take the Reed manufactur's website and product literature as unchallanged fact, but that purplehaze or any other person should not take DT's criticizing advertising/report as dubious?!?! Aren't they both equally unsubstantiated (by us)?

Seriously, Fred... I fear some hypocrisy is in your approach.

Please illuminate us otherwise. If you can do it civilly.

And again... I'll say (and don't get tired of saying it), that I will promptly uninvite from this thread anyone not playing fair... by what I deem to be fair

If anyone doesn't like the rules here... bub-bye! Expect a PM

They can start their own thread elsewhere if needed

 

[Steven Pro]

Anthony, I thought of two other very experienced phytoplankton growers that are also fellow Pittsburghers: Eric and Sallie. Also, since neither is actively involved in marines, their inherent level of bias is nill. Additionally, if you obtain the phytoplankton, you could give them blind samples simply labeled A, B, C, etc. Each sample would have a standardized portion of the products and at the end of a set time period, the grown samples would be evaluated.

Just some thoughts.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

hey, great idea Steve

We should discuss this more over sushi

Seriously too... I will pick up a selection of brands from across the nation in the coming weeks. I'll be cross country and back twice... through a handful of cities. Will buy them at whatever LFS shops I find. Kell from LMAS offered to grow them out as well and she has no affiliations. Heck... she doesn't even like coral/filter feeders Blashpemy I know Imagine my surprise when she said fish culture needs phyto (feeding rots/pods) Fish... Hmmm... interesting. I never thought of putting them in an aquarium. I guess I'll have to take some coral out Heehee...

 

[Anthony Calfo]

A bit of FYI for readers of this thread... thefolks that Steve is suggesting we try using include:

Dr. Sallie Boggs - Grand Master Breeder and highest ranked (FW) aquarist in the USA variously through the years... has bred more marine fish too (pipefish, gobies, blennis, clowns, cardinals...) than most anyone you and I will ever meet.

Eric Bodrock - also Grand Master status as I recall and one of the most accmplished aquarists you will ever meet. Has been the first to breed (in the world) and import a very long list of fishes! He's the present owner of All Oddball Aquatics in Pittsburgh PA (all freshwater but TRULY must bee seen if you ever visit the city!!!!!!!!! His facility is amazing and a near perfect model of what a "fishroom" should look like)

Kelly Jedlicki - expert marine aquarist, decade long BOD member for LMAS, directed two of three successful MACNAs for her hometown aquarium society. She has bred marine fishes from tiny seahorses to (spawned but not yet reared) Puffers and Burrfishes and sharks! Currently keeps a marine-only 3,000-ish gallon fishroom(s)

I know all three of these folks very well... I respect them all greatly! And not one of them is an avid coral keeper (Kelly being the only one of the three with any inverts at home... she calls them "puffer food" ). These folks will have no bias nor any/much recollection of coral trade advertising or drama. With blind samples... thats good enough for me.

Steve... will you check with Eric this week if you can? Ask if he has the time?

I'll check with Sallie. Kell has confirmed.

Will someone(s) make a list of the products that are being marketed as live? Let's all agree on a list of what needs/wants to be looked at. Obviosuly DTs and Reed's will be discussed.

I'll talk to Dr. Marini to see if he's interested in serving as an overseer with... Steve Pro? and I for simple decisions on the matter.

Make no mistake y'all... this is only a casual trial.

Why?

Because we are all poor We don't have over 10K to contribute for a proper scietific study. In true consumer advoc fashion, we must fund it ourselves.

This is just a practical excercise of a practical application. And that has to be good enough for now.

 

[spawner]

Anthony,

I think you should also have the dry weight of each product tested. I can also have this done for you through another person. We have a clam hatchery that is doing some reserach on algae. They use our lab for dry weigths. I can ask the tech they have doing dry weights everyday to run some for me. You could just send her 5mL of the product labeled A,B,C etc. Next to something being alive I would think this is the most important question to answer, how much are you really getting.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Very good point my friend. And we will do this first so that when giving the blind samples to the growers, we can begin with quantitatively equal samples.

Although, playing devil's advocate here... the (equal) dry weight of samples used is less of an issue when addressing the question of if a given product is simply live or not (presuming said products are wholly live or wholly dead... but not allowing for the possibility that a "mostly dead" product if so would have a greater chance of growing out with a greater dry weight sample size).

Ultimately yes, though, we must standardize the weights of samples.

Andy, thanks you again May I ask/trouble you to e-mail or PM me with information on how we can accomplish this together?

 

[Steven Pro]

I just remembered something. I recall an awkward moment at a Midwest Marine Aquarium Conference a few years back. Joe Lichtenberg (sp?) was talking about raising his clownfish. He mentioned briefly that he thought DT's was a dead product. Dennis happened to be in the audience and corrected him saying it was in fact live. To which Joe responded that he assumed it was dead because he could not get a culture to start with it.

 

[Puffer Queen]

I think the problem in trying to culture DT's may be that there is more than one strain of algae in the solution.

Just my opinion.
Kelly

 

[DrBDC]

I have tried a half dozen times with DT's and I could never get a culture started. Not sure the reasons but it was no problem getting one going with some nanno from someone that was shipped half way across the country and it looked dead by the time it got to me. Mostly white and cloudy with barely a tint of green. But apparently there were some live cells left.

 

[GreshamH]

I think the problem in trying to culture DT's may be that there is more than one strain of algae in the solution.

Just my opinion.
Kelly

Which would be an even greater problem with Phyto-Feast Live, being there's 5+ strains in there

 

[Anthony Calfo]

no worries... this is just a simple excercise. As in... so simple that it can easily be answered with a good microscope (live or not)!

Indeed... that is the very point to some great extent here: most hobbyists do not have access to a good microscope nor the skills to ID what they/we are looking at. hence the practical excerises we go through in various consumer experiment threads with light bulbs, pest control products, etc.

Gresham... am I to understand correctly from the PM you just sent me that you have an affiliation with Reed Products? Its not problem at all so long as you identify it in posts when making comments that can be taken as endorsements (caution of shilling here) by readers that do not know of the bias.

You see... "even greater 'problem'" with the Reed product can be taken as a comment that its an "even better product" for allegedly having more strains/species.

Sigh... a slippery slope. If only a non-industry person had made the comment

 

[Anthony Calfo]

followup: Gresham has confirmed his professional affiliation with Reed Products (I thank you for the prompt reply, Gresham).

That's no problem in simple information exchanges/posts. But some discretion needs to be applied, as all mfgs/sponsors need to do when talking about their products specifically.

No biggie here... just a heads up to all.

 

[GreshamH]

Yup, I've never tried to hide the fact either

The grade of the slope depends on the reader, no matter what the intentions of the author were/are

From viewing phyto under a scope, what protocols are going to be used to quantify live? Simply saying it's not moving isn't an accurate measure if the cell is alive.

 

[Anthony Calfo]

Gresham... can you simply tell us if the algae in Reed product in question here is alive in the bottle at the time a consumer purchases it say... 3 weeks after it leaves the bottling facility? (please see definition below). Presuming that your distributer has handled the product exactly as you'd recommend, of course.

Put another way, could the bottled product ever be used solely by a Reed expert to start a new growing culture for production of more Reed phyto?

I think this is largely where many of us are confused or unclear on the definition of "live" or "alive"

 

[Anthony Calfo]

ooh... my apologies. I missed your post.

As for the "protocols are going to be used to quantify live"

That has me... confused as well.

It's alive... or its not. Right?

If the phyto is not dead then... its alive.

Or maybe I missed learning about some state of existence that is not either?

We have very simple requirements here for qualifications in the categories of live or dead

Torpor is alive. Hibernation... yep, alive. Stoned on cheap wine... alive (barely). Glue sniffing induced deomonstrations of performance art... also alive (regrettably). Drooling and mumbling incoherently after a the Saturday banquet at MACNA conference... oh yeah - alive (but wishing not).

 

[GreshamH]

so you look under a scope, and your looking for life how, movement, reproduction, what? That's what I'm getting at in my "quantify life" comment.

Drooling and mumbling incoherently after a the Saturday banquet at MACNA conference... oh yeah - alive (but wishing not).

I ponder the meaning of life at that moment, it's the morning after I wish I wasn't alive

 

[spawner]

The fact that an algae culture might have more than one species in it doesn't keep you from starting a culture with it. If it was alive and healthy enough to start a culture with, then it would grow, it might be taken over by the fastest growing, weed type, but it would grow no doubt about it. There are plenty of ways to isolate several species from a culture. This is commonly done when isolating a new strain or species from the wild.

Calfo....Torpor is alive. Hibernation... yep, alive. Stoned on cheap wine... alive (barely). Glue sniffing induced demonstrations of performance art... also alive (regrettably). Drooling and mumbling incoherently after a the Saturday banquet at MACNA conference... oh yeah - alive (but wishing not).

Ha, yes these are alive, but you left out the part of being covered in caramel food flavoring so you don't smell.

Seriously, being alive doesn't give any clue as to the health of the algae. For example one algae species might be very alive and very healthy but not much better than Mickey D's while another species might be on its last leg but still have more nutrition.

I think its best to keep things simple and then get more complicated if needed.

 

[shred5]

I just remembered something. I recall an awkward moment at a Midwest Marine Aquarium Conference a few years back. Joe Lichtenberg (sp?) was talking about raising his clownfish. He mentioned briefly that he thought DT's was a dead product. Dennis happened to be in the audience and corrected him saying it was in fact live. To which Joe responded that he assumed it was dead because he could not get a culture to start with it.

Hey Steven...
I was there and remember that... By the way wasnt that Anthony's first time giving a talk on the reef hobby.....

Funny thing is I know I have heard of people culturing dt's... Back then they only had one strain in DT's.. Now they have more strains of algae to make it harded to culture... Rod Buehler should know since he used to work for DT's...

Dave

 

[Anthony Calfo]

...Not my first talk to the hobby by any stretch (had been doing regional pitches since early 90's) ... but it was my second largest crowd at that time... and I was quite nervous!

MASM had microphone troubles (feedback) and I could not use my hands animately, which for people of Italian decent is like wearing a muzzle. For me at least. Heehee... it was difficult talking without using my hands to 'ennunciate'

As for the multiple strains of algae being added to any phyto product to make it more difficult to culture out... that's ridiculous.

They are not grown togther... but merely blended to make a more diverse (particle/prey size) product.

Much like the biodiversity in your own reef tank, which reveals certain organisms that excel and displace others... so too will any mixed phyto culture. You cannot (and would not want to) culture all 5 or X-multiple strains in one vessel. That's not a strategic marketing handicap... it's a simple biological reality/inevitability.

I believe that most aquarists buying Reed, DTs or any other muti-species phyto product prefer the convenience of getting more potential prey/species in one bottle rather than having to buy multiple products/packages.

 

[FMarini]

Anthony-
Thanks for this wonderful information exhcange this is an excellent thread. I jumped in on page 1 about 5 months ago.
I am of the opinion that home hobbyists can grow decent phyto cultures of excellent nutrition, however it takes more than 5 mins/day and as Mr Reed has noted time=money. So in many cases the superior product can be readily purchased.

Thats said, i'll gladly provide some oversight in interperting the data for your consumer reoprt. I can tell you that i have a chance to view both products in question under a microscope (one of the labs fancy $75K leicas) and it quite revealing.

In this regards- allow me to suggest you ask additional questions of your hypothesis, which i beieve is are these products "alive" (whatever your definition of alive is). To me focusing on - can you culture these products is not the appropiate way to address their "alive-edness". If viability is a concern (to me this is the more approaiate term for these products, since you are asking are they alive or not alive. Viability would assess are they metabolically active and do they still contain sufficent nutrition (which IMO are really the questions your pondering), not can you culture them out and make a starter culture from them. If you want primo monoculture, go to the site Mr Reed supplied about 3 pages back.
As for culturing these products, I'm not sure what to expect and what your expectations would be? I guess I'm askin what is your end result? are you trying to get all of the individual species to culture out or just prove that a product contains sufficent innoculum to start some form of culture in your hands?
If it were me conducting the experiment I would make this a very simple experiment. Agree on a standard endpoint, first.

Last comment, i saw this a while back, the use of a carmelizing agent to mask the smell. I remember a while back, when the first wave of "live" phyto products hit the market, many threads popped up about should my algae XX smell like this? I suspect this a reponse to those comments, this way a product can undergo decompostion and putrification and not generate an obvious indicator of its spoiling. However it would suggest that presumably one would expect the product containing the maskin agent to be decomposing, hence not viable.

frank