Cyano

[huskerreef]

I am always baffled by the goings on on my tank and how the tank upstairs and downstairs can have the same water running through it yet have different issue like they were completely seperate. The downstairs tank has a wicked cyano outbreak on the sand bed yet everything is fine upstairs. I have been doing 50 gallon water changes every 2 weeks so I thought I was keeping a head of things. I am bad on doing water testing so I have no parameters (I guess thats the first step in diagnosing). I recently found that my ro/di was at 339 ppm so I replaced all filters and added a sediment prefilter before the ro/di, removed my Phosphate media and reactor for a cleaning and media replacement, I have also added a Vortech MP40 to direct flow across the front sand bed. Any sugestions on what else to look at?

 

[malawiman]

wow i thought i was crazy! this happens to me also with my bi level system.
i almost always have some cyano somewhere but if its downstairs its not upstairs and vica versa. i dont know why thou.

 

[Hartdude]

Has the Vortech helped at all?

 

[huskerreef]

Has the Vortech helped at all?

Doesn't seem to have. but its only been a couple days. I also redirected my Tunze's slightly downward as well. I need to invent Cyano-begone, I would be rich.

 

[alanmorehead]

I talked a little to Jason about this and have seen this pop up recently on the chem forum here. From what I understand, cyano can grow in extremely low nutrient environments and it's possible that bringing nitrates and phosphates very close to zero can still yield cyano growth. I have 0.0066 PO4 and 1.3 NO3, yet I still have cyano on my sand and even some on my rock. From a water chemistry perspective, is it even controllable without dosing something like chemi-clean? or do we need to focus more on the non-chemistry environmental factors like flow? I used to think of cyano being more an indicator of poor tank management, but I think a lot more reefers have it that I originally thought (IIRC, Sunny was fighting it too and he's got an awesome SPS tank thread here).

Here is the chem thread I read on it:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1764101&highlight=cyano

 

[jd474]

Yeah, nuisance things like valonia (bubble algae) and cyano can and do grow just fine in absolutely pristine water conditions. I think the best way is to combat it on several different fronts. Even though it can grow in nutrient deficient water, a quick water test would be a good start. If your levels are bad, you can move ahead accordingly. Otherwise, something to maintain/turnover the sand bed, daily or every other day (small) water changes/syphoning, black out periods, macro algae/nutrient export, aggressive skimming, and lighter feedings, all go a long way. It just sucks when you have such a large tank. When our caribbean exhibit first had livestock introduced, I was battling cyano and bryopsis like crazy for 2 - 3 months. I was usually diving 2 - 3 times per week, syphoning 800 - 1000 gal. out per dive, just to get it respectable. Now it's 99% gone. Persistence really pays off.

As far as chemical treatment goes, I'm not a big fan. I know it has worked for a lot of people, but I don't think I've met someone that tried everything they could, and wasn't successful at ridding their system of cyano. I cringe at the thought of wiping out enough beneficial bacteria in the process that it would cause some major fish loss in your system, especially when dealing with the prices that came with all those wrasses. Come to think of it, at my salary, the prices of fairy wrasses also make me cringe.

 

[bohlke]

Yeah, nuisance things like valonia (bubble algae) and cyano can and do grow just fine in absolutely pristine water conditions. I think the best way is to combat it on several different fronts. Even though it can grow in nutrient deficient water, a quick water test would be a good start. If your levels are bad, you can move ahead accordingly. Otherwise, something to maintain/turnover the sand bed, daily or every other day (small) water changes/syphoning, black out periods, macro algae/nutrient export, aggressive skimming, and lighter feedings, all go a long way. It just sucks when you have such a large tank. When our caribbean exhibit first had livestock introduced, I was battling cyano and bryopsis like crazy for 2 - 3 months. I was usually diving 2 - 3 times per week, syphoning 800 - 1000 gal. out per dive, just to get it respectable. Now it's 99% gone. Persistence really pays off.

As far as chemical treatment goes, I'm not a big fan. I know it has worked for a lot of people, but I don't think I've met someone that tried everything they could, and wasn't successful at ridding their system of cyano. I cringe at the thought of wiping out enough beneficial bacteria in the process that it would cause some major fish loss in your system, especially when dealing with the prices that came with all those wrasses. Come to think of it, at my salary, the prices of fairy wrasses also make me cringe.

I have had good luck using the 3 days of dark to get ahead of the problem and then do some sandbed siphoning. Its definatly better than chemiclean or other chemicals and I havent lost any coral using it yet. It seems to pop up in my tank from time to time and then I know its time for another round.

 

[Hartdude]

Jim, I have a Reef Master master test kit you can borrow. It has pH, Nitrate, Alkalinity, Phosphate, and Calcium kits in it.

Didn't you do a recent bulb change when you replaced your ballasts? I wonder if like Jon said, you went dark for 24 to 48 hours if that would put the brakes on so you could at least catch up on it?

 

[tom obrecht]

Just when I think about starting a tank again I hear a story like this and think twice.

If I gave my $.02 (which is about all it's really worth) I would say your tds reading had much to do with things. I think by replacing your filters and media will eventually get things back in line. However, with a system like yours that holds a very large amount of water it will take some time to turn around from my experience. A wise man once told me "bad things happen quickly and good things take time". I have found that to be true in this hobby. I think a testing of the basics will perhaps give some insight as well.

Why the basement tank is covered and the upstairs display is clear is strange, but it could be due to factors we are not thinking of. Flow may be one reason but lighting, ditritus buildup in the sandbed ect may also have bearing. Heck, in my old 260 I had a 4" spot that occassionally was thick with cyano while everything else was clear. Only popped up on occassion but when it did it was always in the same spot.

I would try testing the water params first and see what that holds.

Good luck!

 

[huskerreef]

in the last 2 months, I changed all bulbs (same spectrum, bulb), all new ro/di filters, went from 6 Vortechs to 3-6305 Tunze's(7900gph each), 3 days ago added back in a new Vortech to blow across the open front area. I believe it all started when my TDS measured 339 as I misjudged just how much water I was flowing through my RO/DI and depleted the filters. Now it just may take time to bring it all back in check. I will run some tests, which I should have done already but haven't had time. I am not a fan of any chemical kills so I plan to work on some of my maintenance issues and also thinking about some algae's for my sump. I have judged the tanks health by watching how the corals look, if everything looks happy I assume everything is in check, but when I see things looking less than stellar I know something is out of wack. I would be willing to bet that my TDS issue is the culpret and that it will take some time to reel everything back in. I'm still confused on why it affects one tank and not the other..its all the same water.

 

[huskerreef]

Testing should be my first thing I do before going to the public for advice without all the facts to best answer the question. The odd thing is the downstairs tank has been getting the sand bed vacuumed regularly with water changes and the upstairs no vacuuming at all. Could we be depleting the good stuff in the sand bed? I know some day you'll be back Tom....its to addictive:rollface:

 

[hankclaussen]

Jim, I think the sand bed in the big tank is too shallow to have 'good stuff' that would actually limit cyano (but a good depth to have overall). A deep bed or other oxygen deprived mechanism is where you'll find anerobic bacteria capable of eating up nitrate (and phosphate). Cyano is a nitrate-binder that in effect acts like a bridge out of the full circle of processing nitrate, be it through actual processing like a dsb, or removal by your ginormous skimmer.

The TDS may well have had something to do with it, fixing that is certainly a good idea, but flow never hurts either. I'm afraid the MP40 simply won't do for you though, you're gonna need another Tunze and I'll take that MP40 for helping you out with this so much... :lolspin:

Oh, and personally I'd add a big batch of carbon for that high TDS water going in.

 

[huskerreef]

I actually emptied my old phosphate reactor, waiting on new media, and filled it with a few pounds of carbon for now.

 

[huskerreef]

as far as a nutrient export would you think rdsb or refugium with macro's? Added a bunch of new sand to the 620 display today when they serviced the tank, also vacuumed the sand bed. Its wierd how some if the sand dust that gets into the water column and settles onto the rock work has already started some cyano growth. From testing my Phospates and Nitrates are high, it will take some time to naturally bring things back in line.

 

[huskerreef]

I am still confused by rdsb, why is it that if you put 100lb of live sand in a trash can with water I was told it goes bad and has potentially deadly consequences if put back in your tank, yet a rdsb works to export nutrients. Is it that your flowing water across the sand versus trying just recirculate the water in the storage can? I've been reading this stuff and trying to wrap my mind around how it actually works.

 

[bohlke]

An RDSB in a bucket will not get disturbed so the risk is less. And if you are worried about it you can always just disconnect it. For a system like yours I would assume you would need a much bigger bucket, there was a TOTM with a 55G brute used as an RDSB that might be about right for your system (look I found the link http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-12/totm/index.php ). Mine took my nitrates from 5-10ppm to close to 0. I think if you had that with a large macro algae area you could get both nitrates in phosphates down.

I am still confused by rdsb, why is it that if you put 100lb of live sand in a trash can with water I was told it goes bad and has potentially deadly consequences if put back in your tank, yet a rdsb works to export nutrients. Is it that your flowing water across the sand versus trying just recirculate the water in the storage can? I've been reading this stuff and trying to wrap my mind around how it actually works.

 

[huskerreef]

how much sand would I need?

 

[jd474]

how much sand would I need?

I put about 400 lbs. in a 55 G trash can once, but I don't think there's any added benefit once you're over 10 inches deep. I know a road in town where there's about 1500 lbs. of CaribSea sand sitting in a ditch.....

 

[Hartdude]

Jim, have you thought about plumbing in a fuge to your system? I think a 40 breeder would fit nicely next to your ozone system. The light that comes from your tank lights would be plenty for a fuge, I would think. You could plumb your skimmer return to dump into the fuge, then just have a gravity dump through a bulkhead to your main sump. You could really probably put a moderately deep sandbed in that 40, with chaeto and caluerpa in it. I'm not sure how much a DSB in a 40b would help your cause, but I don't see it hurting anything. How are the new additions to the 90 doing?

 

[bohlke]

What are your nitrates at now?