muttley000
MTS Sufferer!
Call me lazy, but are there threads explaining these surge devices?
CyclistMT's 300 Gal Plywood and Glass Build
- Thread starter CyclistMT
- Start date
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Sorry for the delayed reply muttley. I was out of town a couple of weeks ago and this week the rivers have dropped, the trout are hungery, and the hopper season is starting early so I've been doing my level best to make the trout in Montana fear my presense anywhere in the state. Unfortunately I feel like there's a lot more mocking going on than fear on their part. But I digress....
As to your question, Google Borneman Surge Device and Carlson Surge Device and you should turn up many links to while away your time. Those are the traditional type of surge devices (a dump bucket works too so you might want to Google that too).
However, all those types of surge will induce bubbles and noise to the tank. If you want more info on actuated ball valve surges, a Google search is a place to start, you can follow this thread, and you should also check out d3hree's thread as he will be using one too.
Also, if you have copies of The Reef Aquarium series by Delbeek and Sprung they talk about surge devices in a couple of them.
Hope that helps!
Current music selection: Ozzy - Bark At The Moon
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Well here is the promised if slightly overdue update. I will start with the pictures for the easily distracted crowd and then follow them up with more explanation for the one smelly guy in the back. Yes, I can see you.....slap a bit of Old Spice on already will ya?
The tank is fully functional but this is NOT saltwater.
Sump/drain/return.
Sump with port to frag/sea grass tank.
Frag/sea grass tank.
Surge tank.
So, on to the study portion of our presentation. I've had fresh water in the tank since mid June but I've been dealing with the need to tweak things here and there to get it working the way I want it to.
One thing was the Beananimal drain. I used 2” pvc for it because I was worried that when the surge fired it would overwhelm 1.5”. Unfortunately this was both the right and wrong decision. When the surge if filling, the water going over the overflow is not fast enough to keep a traditional Beananimal from surging without really throttling down the siphon channel. Of course if I do that then when the surge fires the open channel kicks in too well and causes a slurp before the whole thing can settle. On top of that, I want my two pumps to run opposite of each other to simulate a tidal flow ever 6 hours. Unfortunately I couldn't seem to get each of them tuned identically so the drain would be set OK for one but then the other kicked on and it wasn't right. Ultimately I decided to make two of the drains open channel and still have an emergency. That means bubbles in the sump and some noise but the bubbles don't get to the return pumps and I'm hopeful the noise is manageable once I close the stand up.
Another thing was the first baffle in the sump. It ended up being too high when the surge fired which caused water to splash over the edge. It was an easy fix but I had to drain the sump, cut the baffle down, and silicone it back into place. Given my procrastinating habits it took me a few days to work up to it.
I also had a couple of leaks at the bulkheads and once you see my plumbing nightmare you'll understand how many contortions I went through to get those tight. BIG pipe wrench to the rescue.
It's now time for the Clint Eastwood portion of our presentation. Do you feel lucky punk? Well do ya?-The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.
The Good.....
The actuated surge valve work flawlessly and I'm very pleased with the surge in the tank. I can't wait to get some animals in here to see how they respond. Zero, wait let me make sure you hear this, ZERO bubbles in the tank when the surge fires. It's awesome.....
The Bad.....
My Waterblaster pumps. The flow is fine but they are not silent. I would be OK with quiet if not silent but they are not even that. These things make noise and lot of it to my ears. Again, I'm hopeful they will be sufficiently muffled once the stand is enclosed. Once they die I will replace them with something else. I won't buy these again. Even once saltwater goes in I don't see these quieting down.
The Ugly.....
My plumbing. I knew it was going to be tight so I was careful to glue everything really well so I wouldn't have to deal with any leaks. So far so good and I did put in unions to allow me to take out the actuated valve for service if needed. But it's still a pain to try and get my hands in there.
For the conclusion of our presentation I'm going to talk about the total cost of the tank to get it to a point where it will sustain life. So if your significant other is in the room you may want to close your browser and review this at a latter time when they're not around. Of course, you, my large tank brethren and sisteren will probably not be shocked by this and can commiserate well with me. OK, here we go. Drum roll please...The cost of my tank to get it to the point it will sustain sea life (including estimation of what it will take to finish off the stand but not including any livestock) is - $5825. I probably shouldn't have kept track of my costs because it does take some of the fun out of it but I've never done it before and I was curious. Keep in mind this is with me making ALL of my own live rock, sourcing cheap crushed coral in the form of chicken calcium, and building my own tank. I'm certain this tank in all glass would have been at least a grand or two more. It's easy to see how a project like this can top 10K or more if you buy everything “off the shelf”. I didn't include a skimmer or calcium reactor in that total either but I will likely end up with both of them so there's another $1200.00.
I plan for the next major update to have saltwater in the tank and the finished aquascape. However it is officially hopper season here in MT and the trout are on the rise so the tank might take a back seat for a few weeks.
If you've read through this whole post, it's time to shut the computer off an get out in the sun. Have a great summer everyone!
Current music selection: Dio – We Rock
The tank is fully functional but this is NOT saltwater.
Sump/drain/return.
Sump with port to frag/sea grass tank.
Frag/sea grass tank.
Surge tank.
So, on to the study portion of our presentation. I've had fresh water in the tank since mid June but I've been dealing with the need to tweak things here and there to get it working the way I want it to.
One thing was the Beananimal drain. I used 2” pvc for it because I was worried that when the surge fired it would overwhelm 1.5”. Unfortunately this was both the right and wrong decision. When the surge if filling, the water going over the overflow is not fast enough to keep a traditional Beananimal from surging without really throttling down the siphon channel. Of course if I do that then when the surge fires the open channel kicks in too well and causes a slurp before the whole thing can settle. On top of that, I want my two pumps to run opposite of each other to simulate a tidal flow ever 6 hours. Unfortunately I couldn't seem to get each of them tuned identically so the drain would be set OK for one but then the other kicked on and it wasn't right. Ultimately I decided to make two of the drains open channel and still have an emergency. That means bubbles in the sump and some noise but the bubbles don't get to the return pumps and I'm hopeful the noise is manageable once I close the stand up.
Another thing was the first baffle in the sump. It ended up being too high when the surge fired which caused water to splash over the edge. It was an easy fix but I had to drain the sump, cut the baffle down, and silicone it back into place. Given my procrastinating habits it took me a few days to work up to it.
I also had a couple of leaks at the bulkheads and once you see my plumbing nightmare you'll understand how many contortions I went through to get those tight. BIG pipe wrench to the rescue.
It's now time for the Clint Eastwood portion of our presentation. Do you feel lucky punk? Well do ya?-The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.
The Good.....
The actuated surge valve work flawlessly and I'm very pleased with the surge in the tank. I can't wait to get some animals in here to see how they respond. Zero, wait let me make sure you hear this, ZERO bubbles in the tank when the surge fires. It's awesome.....
The Bad.....
My Waterblaster pumps. The flow is fine but they are not silent. I would be OK with quiet if not silent but they are not even that. These things make noise and lot of it to my ears. Again, I'm hopeful they will be sufficiently muffled once the stand is enclosed. Once they die I will replace them with something else. I won't buy these again. Even once saltwater goes in I don't see these quieting down.
The Ugly.....
My plumbing. I knew it was going to be tight so I was careful to glue everything really well so I wouldn't have to deal with any leaks. So far so good and I did put in unions to allow me to take out the actuated valve for service if needed. But it's still a pain to try and get my hands in there.
For the conclusion of our presentation I'm going to talk about the total cost of the tank to get it to a point where it will sustain life. So if your significant other is in the room you may want to close your browser and review this at a latter time when they're not around. Of course, you, my large tank brethren and sisteren will probably not be shocked by this and can commiserate well with me. OK, here we go. Drum roll please...The cost of my tank to get it to the point it will sustain sea life (including estimation of what it will take to finish off the stand but not including any livestock) is - $5825. I probably shouldn't have kept track of my costs because it does take some of the fun out of it but I've never done it before and I was curious. Keep in mind this is with me making ALL of my own live rock, sourcing cheap crushed coral in the form of chicken calcium, and building my own tank. I'm certain this tank in all glass would have been at least a grand or two more. It's easy to see how a project like this can top 10K or more if you buy everything “off the shelf”. I didn't include a skimmer or calcium reactor in that total either but I will likely end up with both of them so there's another $1200.00.
I plan for the next major update to have saltwater in the tank and the finished aquascape. However it is officially hopper season here in MT and the trout are on the rise so the tank might take a back seat for a few weeks.
If you've read through this whole post, it's time to shut the computer off an get out in the sun. Have a great summer everyone!
Current music selection: Dio – We Rock
jarrodsanborn
New member
Awesome! I'm planning a big tank now and have been eagerly awaiting your update.
I'm thinking plywood will allow me to spread out costs over time.
Final thoughts on the sicce pumps?
I'm thinking plywood will allow me to spread out costs over time.
Final thoughts on the sicce pumps?
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Welcome aboard!
Well, I guess my final thoughts on the Sicce Voyager is to try a Korallia Magnum 8 instead of buying a second Sicce. The good news is I can't hear the Sicce over the Water Blasters. The bad news is the Water Blaster as so blasted loud. I might end up replacing them down the road so I hope to still find something quieter than the Sicce.
tgunn
Active member
Very impressive so far! I'm surprised your surge doesn't introduce any bubbles at all! I always associate bubbles with surges. I imagine that is going to look awesome once there are fish and corals in there that get blasted by the surge.
So the DIY liverock is still to come I take it? I've got a big stack of it so far from back in March when I was making it. I have been busy and haven't made much more. I have a couple pieces sitting in a bucket fed by my RO/DI waste line -- after all this time if I take out the waste water line, the pH will slowly raise to about 9.1 in the bucket. The hydration is definitely slowing though.
I feel your pain with how the plumbing got tight. But hopefully you won't have to do much with it once its tweaked.
Tyler
So the DIY liverock is still to come I take it? I've got a big stack of it so far from back in March when I was making it. I have been busy and haven't made much more. I have a couple pieces sitting in a bucket fed by my RO/DI waste line -- after all this time if I take out the waste water line, the pH will slowly raise to about 9.1 in the bucket. The hydration is definitely slowing though.
I feel your pain with how the plumbing got tight. But hopefully you won't have to do much with it once its tweaked.
Tyler
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
:thumbsup:Getting closer......
Yes, aquascaping with my DIY rock from my previous tank (that has been "cooking" for 3 years now) is up next. Feels good to be finally getting there.
Yes, aquascaping with my DIY rock from my previous tank (that has been "cooking" for 3 years now) is up next. Feels good to be finally getting there.
Ok I've been in my planning stages on my build and since following this thread im changing my build to a plywood glass build I have a few questions
1 did you just use silicone to secure the glass? Or is it bedded in epoxy?
2 did you paint it first or mix paint into the epoxy?
3 how much epoxy did you use on this I looked on the uscomposite site and I'm thinking I can do my tank and stand for about 1600 if using less then 5 gallons just the tank alone I wanted to buy was 2600 so this is a no brainier my father is a custom cabinet maker so wood work is like a second nature to me
4 how thick is the wood your using didn't see it in the thread might have missed it
1 did you just use silicone to secure the glass? Or is it bedded in epoxy?
2 did you paint it first or mix paint into the epoxy?
3 how much epoxy did you use on this I looked on the uscomposite site and I'm thinking I can do my tank and stand for about 1600 if using less then 5 gallons just the tank alone I wanted to buy was 2600 so this is a no brainier my father is a custom cabinet maker so wood work is like a second nature to me
4 how thick is the wood your using didn't see it in the thread might have missed it
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Welcome aboard Craig!
1. Yes, the glass is secured with silicone. You need to rough up the area that you're going to silicone so that it sticks better and you use enough to create a gasket. It is not like siliconing an all glass tank where you use a thin bead.
2. I mixed pigment into the epoxy. You can find that at US Composites as well.
3.You will need to calculate your epoxy needs based on your tank. First you need to determine how many cubic inches of epoxy you need. For example (this is just one panel) a 48"x60" panel is 360 cubic inches at an 1/8" pour (48*60*.125) or 720 cubic inches at a 1/4" pour (48*60*.25). Convert to gals with the formula (cubic inches * 0.004329004). Thus the same panel above requires 1.56 gals at a 1/8" pour and 3.12 at a 1/4" pour. I opted to go with 1/4" pour all around and ended up with a 7 gal kit (5 gal resin, 2 gal hardener). That was suffcient for the tank. I ended up getting a bit more to finish off my sump, surge tank, and frag tank. Remember I also poured my epoxy before I cut out my viewing panels and used them for my sump. If you're not going to do that you could save epoxy by cutting out your viewing panels first and then you'll have less wood to epoxy.
4. 3/4" plywood all around.
Good luck!
In other news....It's salt wet folks! Took me 4 days to fill the damn thing with RO/DI but we're there. Aquascaping begins this week!
Current music selection: Ra - Rectifier
Any thoughts on if I were to use acrylic and bed it into the epoxy I'm going to build my stand/sump/fuge and on my fuge I'm going to try it will let y'all know I'm digging this style tank as you can build what you want. I'm going a half octo shape with the back 84" long by 16" wide on the flat ends then 45 the corners up to a 60" front panel 30" tall gonna use 1.25" plywood
Also as I said I was going to use 1.25" plywood I was going to router out 2" around the inside and have glass set flush on the inside of tank using 1/2" glass. Was planning on siliconing the glass to the wood on the face then running a bead all the way around the outside of the glass. My tank wood is already cut had some 3/4 and 1/2 plywood in the garage from some cabinets I had planning and laminated the two together to give me 1.25" thick. So I was planning on brushing the epoxy on the sides doing prolly 6 to 8 coats on the bottom pouring in 1/4" layer. But was thinking about using 1/2" acrylic and bedding it into the epoxy but wanted thoughts on this
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
If you're going with a rimless tank then laminating the plywood makes sense but if you're going to have cross braces or a euro brace it's probably not worth the effort. Remember, my tank is 48" wide with 3 viewing windows and I didn't use anything but 3/4" plywood with a euro brace and 1/2" glass.
If you want to route out a space for the glass that's fine but again, not needed. Cosmetically it might look a bit better but by using black silicone, I really don't notice the glass edges. Just be sure to leave more space around the glass if you do this. This is to avoid any issues from expansion and contraction due to temperature fluctuations.
If I could, I would really like to talk you out of brushing the epoxy on. I did that on my last tank and while it worked fine, using the pour method on this tank has given me significant peace of mind. It really makes for a nearly indestructable method. Go to fingerlakesreef and look at their plywood section if you want to learn more about this method.
Don't embed acrylic in the epoxy unless you like to experiment. There is absoltuely no reason for it. Once the expoxy sets it's every bit as hard as acrylic. In my opinion you will be just wasting money and time. But if you want to try it becasue no one has ever done it before then by all means go for it. We wouldn't be where we are today without a pioneering spirit!
Current music selection: Metalica - Nothing Else Matters
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
I don't have any problems discussing in this thread as it will benefit others that might be following along.
That's an interesting idea about bedding an acrylic viewing panel in the epoxy. I honestly have no idea how that would work but it would be cool if it did. One question I would probably ask (of others that are way smarter than me) is if the epoxy would chemically react in any way to the acrylic while it's curing. As for brushing on the epoxy, it can certainly work but I think it's more trouble than it's worth. I found it much easier to measure out the epoxy for the thickness of the pour I wanted to do and then just spread it out once poured on. It's faily self leveling and the slow hardener gives you plenty of time to work with it. Keep in mind that if you do brush it on, you will still need to lay the section you're brushing flat. As thin as it is you won't be able to paint it on like you would on a wall.
As for DIY, I'm not afraid to say that I'm standing on the shoulders of giants when I expound my ideas. As I've said before I'm more idiot than savant when it comes to a lot of this stuff but I'm not above stealing an idea and tweaking it for my needs. (Hint, that's mostly what I've done.)
Might I suggest you post your ideas in the Do It Yourself forum here? There are a lot of smart folks over there and you'll find a much wider range of experience than just talking to little old me. Good luck and be sure to post a link to your build when you get it started!
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Will you elaborate a lil on pouring over brushing technique I know that pouring I could get a nice thick coat but the deal is on mine I already cut the wood with the viewing panel holes cut as well and I've been contemplating putting a piece of foam in the hole pouring it and then routering it out and then brushing any touch up areas
dadsoldtruck
New member
this build is AWESOME!! and I like it even more being from Montana myself. I miss that place everyday.
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Since you've already cut the openings, you'll need something to dam the edges with so the expoxy doesn't run out. You'll need to do this regardless if you pour or brush. Epoxy is much thinner than paint and takes a lot longer to set up enough so that it won't run. Foam won't be enough. Epoxy will find the smallest crack and continue to run out it. People have tried several different ways to construct a dam but the best way I found was to use good old painters tape. It sticks well enough to the wood but comes off the epoxy fairly easy once it's set.
So, lay the panel you're going to epoxy flat on the ground. Tape up the opening so that the tape extends above it so the epoxy can't run out. Pay close attention to your inside corners. Those will be your problem spots if you don't get the tape in there well. You could also run another layer of tape over that one but lower so that you can fold it under to stick it to what is the outside of the tank. This is to help keep the first layer of tape on.
Then mix up the amount of epoxy you want to pour (2-3 pours per panel is best, you don't want to pour your 1/8" layer all at once). Be careful to not entrain too many bubbles when you're mixing but make sure it's mixed well. You will get bubbles but you can get them out when you pour. Pour it on the panel surfaces you want to epoxy and spread it with a plastic spatula, trowel, etc. Try to get an even layer all around. If your surface is flat, the epoxy will find it's own level. Wait for that layer to cure enough that you can't dent it with a fignernail and pour your next layer. The epoxy is still curing at this point so the 2 layers will chemically bond. The amount of time is dependent on the temp and humidity where you pour. If it does go too long, you can rough up the surface with sandpaper to create a surface to bond the next layer to.
Be sure to check out fingerlakesreef. They have a lot of information on this method over there and quite a few plywood builds there too.
Glad to have you aboard dadsoldtruck! Where you from in MT?
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Aquascaping time!
I took this......
And turned it into this!
I'm really excited to get some livestock in here now but alas, next up is lanthanum chloride dosing to ensure there is no bound phosphate to start of with. Then I might dump in some ammonium chloride to see how fast I can cycle it out. I'm sure there is bacteria in my old rock still but probably not much so I don't want to shock the system by adding a bunch of stuff all at once. I might actually work on getting the stand skinned too before I start buying livestock. If I know me, and I do, if I started buying livestock I'd probably never finish the stand.
Till next time....:beer:
I took this......
And turned it into this!
I'm really excited to get some livestock in here now but alas, next up is lanthanum chloride dosing to ensure there is no bound phosphate to start of with. Then I might dump in some ammonium chloride to see how fast I can cycle it out. I'm sure there is bacteria in my old rock still but probably not much so I don't want to shock the system by adding a bunch of stuff all at once. I might actually work on getting the stand skinned too before I start buying livestock. If I know me, and I do, if I started buying livestock I'd probably never finish the stand.
Till next time....:beer:
