Dazed Queen Angel

[rickcasa]

Purchased it on the 28th and after a standard drip acclimation for 2hrs, in the sump they go with a Powder Blue Tang that's been there for a week learning how to eat. This is my 'QT' for 6 months set up this way, haven't lost a fish yet. And yes, I do have a QT tank I just set up but choosing to bypass it for now. Same day purchase of longnose hawkfish, 2x mandarins, flame angel, 2x bengaiis, and a copperband. Everyone was eating mysis and some including the Queen Angel were eating pellets both at the LFS and in the sump.

After 2 days, all looking very healthy so in the DT they go, except the Powder Blue and the Queen Angel. Alone, the 2 were civil and getting along. This morning I found the Queen listless and as of an hour ago, she is dazed. She needs help that I'm not sure how to provide.

 

[rickcasa]

video

video

I've rushed the PBT to the DT so the Queen is by herself. As you can see, she is pristine with not a mark on her and the fins are perfect...but she's not looking too good. Any help would be appreciated. Are Queen Angels particularly fragile?
<embed width="600" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowFullscreen="true" allowNetworking="all" wmode="transparent" src="http://static.photobucket.com/player.swf" flashvars="file=http%3A%2F%2Fvid929.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad131%2Frickcasa%2F20140101_165608_1.mp4">

 

[rickcasa]

After some digging, I found this disturbing info that could be the cause regarding dinoflagellates and Queen Angels.

Queen angelfishes, Holacanthus ciliaris, have been associated with ciguatera poisoningexternal link which is caused by the accumulation of ciguatoxins in the flesh of tropical marine fishes. Ciguatoxins, produced by marine dinoflagellatesexternal link, grow on algae and are ingested by herbivorousexternal link fishes. Larger fish also accumulate the toxin by feeding on smaller herbivorous fishes and become reservoirs of toxic levels (to humans) of ciguatoxin. Signs and symptoms include gastrointestinal problems, weakness in the arms and legs, and trouble distinguishing between hot and cold. Ciguatera poisoning can last for several weeks.​

I've always had a touch of dinos since I started vinegar dosing but it really hasn't posed much of a problem. With my black sand, I only really notice them on some rocks.
So my guess is the dinos flowing liberally through the sump somewhat is getting ingested. Currently, the Queen is very much alive but has lost its bearings. Eyes are moving, breathing steady. I'm prepping the QT tank and will be running lots of carbon.

I think this might be a case for Humaguy.

 

[nonstopfishies]

After some digging, I found this disturbing info that could be the cause regarding dinoflagellates and Queen Angels.

Queen angelfishes, Holacanthus ciliaris, have been associated with ciguatera poisoningexternal link which is caused by the accumulation of ciguatoxins in the flesh of tropical marine fishes. Ciguatoxins, produced by marine dinoflagellatesexternal link, grow on algae and are ingested by herbivorousexternal link fishes. Larger fish also accumulate the toxin by feeding on smaller herbivorous fishes and become reservoirs of toxic levels (to humans) of ciguatoxin. Signs and symptoms include gastrointestinal problems, weakness in the arms and legs, and trouble distinguishing between hot and cold. Ciguatera poisoning can last for several weeks.​

I've always had a touch of dinos since I started vinegar dosing but it really hasn't posed much of a problem. With my black sand, I only really notice them on some rocks.
So my guess is the dinos flowing liberally through the sump somewhat is getting ingested. Currently, the Queen is very much alive but has lost its bearings. Eyes are moving, breathing steady. I'm prepping the QT tank and will be running lots of carbon.

I think this might be a case for Humaguy.

Based on that, it sounds like something that builds up over time not something that would happen fast.

 

[pktech]

Maybe throw an airstone in? Major water change? Sorry to see that vid - I hope this changes fast!

 

[kaiboshi]

After some digging, I found this disturbing info that could be the cause regarding dinoflagellates and Queen Angels.

Queen angelfishes, Holacanthus ciliaris, have been associated with ciguatera poisoningexternal link which is caused by the accumulation of ciguatoxins in the flesh of tropical marine fishes. Ciguatoxins, produced by marine dinoflagellatesexternal link, grow on algae and are ingested by herbivorousexternal link fishes. Larger fish also accumulate the toxin by feeding on smaller herbivorous fishes and become reservoirs of toxic levels (to humans) of ciguatoxin. Signs and symptoms include gastrointestinal problems, weakness in the arms and legs, and trouble distinguishing between hot and cold. Ciguatera poisoning can last for several weeks.​

I've always had a touch of dinos since I started vinegar dosing but it really hasn't posed much of a problem. With my black sand, I only really notice them on some rocks.
So my guess is the dinos flowing liberally through the sump somewhat is getting ingested. Currently, the Queen is very much alive but has lost its bearings. Eyes are moving, breathing steady. I'm prepping the QT tank and will be running lots of carbon.

I think this might be a case for Humaguy.

Ciguatera poisoning is a concern to humans but AFAIK not to fish. I don't know how you could really determine if a fish had weakness in it's arms and legs or if it was having trouble distinguishing hot and cold =]

Have you checked your water lately? I think a water change would be beneficial for starters. Make sure you've got adequete aeration/flow.

Queens are supposed to be pretty hardy fish. Have you used any medications prophylactically while observing them? Did you check the salinity of the water the fish came from vs your water?

I want to say ich in the gills but she's not gilling that badly. I don't honestly know what to say but I think starting with a few simple things like a water change and paramter confirmation will only help while you wait for someone to offer some better advice. Turn the lights off and try to cover the tank as safely as possible to minimize stress and cross your fingers.

Good luck.

 

[humaguy]

sure she is not suffocating?
hard to tell but I don't see any movement in the water...
was only able to see the first 5 seconds of the video then it was stuck buffering...
can't stress the importance of qt enough...

 

[rickcasa]

Ciguatera poisoning is a concern to humans but AFAIK not to fish. I don't know how you could really determine if a fish had weakness in it's arms and legs or if it was having trouble distinguishing hot and cold =]

Have you checked your water lately? I think a water change would be beneficial for starters. Make sure you've got adequete aeration/flow.

Queens are supposed to be pretty hardy fish. Have you used any medications prophylactically while observing them? Did you check the salinity of the water the fish came from vs your water?

I want to say ich in the gills but she's not gilling that badly. I don't honestly know what to say but I think starting with a few simple things like a water change and paramter confirmation will only help while you wait for someone to offer some better advice. Turn the lights off and try to cover the tank as safely as possible to minimize stress and cross your fingers.

Good luck.

You're right but I still couldnt find info on how dinos affect the fish, if at all, but hoping it might lead to something. thx for the input.

 

[rickcasa]

sure she is not suffocating?
hard to tell but I don't see any movement in the water...
was only able to see the first 5 seconds of the video then it was stuck buffering...
can't stress the importance of qt enough...

Not as obvious, but lots of flow from a DC5000 full power.

So she's in the QT, not moving but breathing and eyes darting. Flesh is starting to discolour from yellow to faint brownish patch near the dorsal.

Could the GFO/GAC effluent cause the suffocation? I put new fish in the GFO/GAC chamber but the water flows out from the reactors directly to the return chamber but recirculating back via open manifold feeds. I dunno...just grasping at anything now.

 

[rachenbrazil]

Queen usually have flukes so fresh water baths for minimal checking and prazipro dosing are recomended. Unfortunally after some degree of health degradation it is very hard to suave the fish due secondary diseases.... Check for flukes with fresh water bath

 

[rickcasa]

Based on that, it sounds like something that builds up over time not something that would happen fast.

Maybe throw an airstone in? Major water change? Sorry to see that vid - I hope this changes fast!

I put her in the QT last night with 50% tank water to start and dripped 50% fresh RODI/H20 salt. Powerhead agitating the surface, heater, ball of cheato for cover and carbon in a BRS reactor. 10% water change tonight and everyday after. But I don't think she'll make it tomorrow as this transfer may have stressed her.
She was so healthy in the first 2 days so it was shocking to find her touching the bottom paralyzed.

 

[pktech]

What do you guys think of using methylene blue in the QT? Making me wonder since it's fins & body are in good shape maybe it's a improperly collected specimen.

 

[rickcasa]

Queen usually have flukes so fresh water baths for minimal checking and prazipro dosing are recomended. Unfortunally after some degree of health degradation it is very hard to suave the fish due secondary diseases.... Check for flukes with fresh water bath

I just added Prazipro now. Shoulda, woulda, coulda. thx

On a happier note, the PBT I rushed into the DT is doing great standing up to the boss Purple Tang. Still not eating pellets but not shy to join in the Nori feast.

 

[rickcasa]

What do you guys think of using methylene blue in the QT? Making me wonder since it's fins & body are in good shape maybe it's a improperly collected specimen.

Thats a logical assumption pktech. The source lfs is notorious in the local forums for short lived fish. However, despite the stigma I've managed to have great success with their fish (except for the leopard wrasse x 3). I guess it caught up with me on this my first large angel.