Debate of the Decade: Reef-Safe Dwarf Angels

saix88: You're not alone, I think that ends up being a lot of people's problem... and not to say that this occurs with 100% of the aquarists out there that have to go fishing for their angel, but I don't think that it is too far off to think that we end up blaming the fish for picking on the corals, even though we should really be looking at what lead up to the fish picking (hence, the purpose of this thread).

That is exactly the reason I was thinking of getting an automatic feeder for that very reason (even though it would probably only be set to provide food once during the day- while I'm at work).
 
I mean, if you look at the ALL of the factors involved, one could easily fall into a situation where an angel decimates their corals. My theory (so far, based on everyone's feedback and my own experience/research) is if one overlooks just ONE of these factors, it could lead to getting the fish trap out. But if the steps are followed, I think that a dwarf angel (and maybe other angels) might be some day considered safe to put in most (if not all) types of reef tanks.

First, is the size/type of the angel (which would infer age and possibly origin). As with most fish, typically the younger individuals (to a certain extent) have an easier time acclimating to captivity than do the older ones, which might mean that the younger individuals are more likely to quickly accept a wide variety of prepared foods and less likely to revert to picking since they are getting their dietary needs met. Also, as some have already pointed out, there are certain angels that seem to do better in captivity (meaning they accept prepared foods quicker and are easier to satisfy their dietary needs).

Second, there is quarantining the fish. I know a lot of people out there don't quarantine their fish, but I think when you're introducing an angel into an established reef tank with several hundreds/thousands dollars worth of corals, it might be worth the investment to not only make sure they are healthy/free of disease, but also to make sure that your angel is eating a variety of foods without the temptation of picking at some of your prized corals. This actually might be the determining factor on whether you are successful going forward. I personally wouldn't add the angel to the DT before he/she is eating EVERYTHING I want them to eat when they are in the DT.

This leads us to the food being provided and the frequency... although just flakes and pellets might be fine, I would think that a mixture of Formula 2 flakes/pellets, frozen preparations, and nori, would likely satisfy their dietary needs. As important, however, is probably the frequency of feeding. If possible, I think the optimal feeding would be a clip/rock with nori attached in the morning (so they have something to pick on when they "wake up"), maybe a small feeding from an automatic feeder of flakes/pellets come early afternoon, and then a mixture of frozen preparations when you get home from work in the evening, and depending on what your light schedule is, maybe another small feeding before you go to bed. And, as saix88 just pointed out, the feeding needs to remain consistent and provided long term, not AFTER you've noticed that the angel is already picking at the coral. As some have pointed out before, I think once the coral is in distress (which typically creates more mucous), the excess mucous provided by the coral becomes too much of a temptation for the angel, and they start to pick at it. Also, this type of feeding obviously would require a good skimmer and other filtration (DSB, LR, Phosphate reactor, etc.).

This then leads to the size of the tank (and, indirectly, the amount of LR and exposed "picking surface" you have). The smaller the "picking surface" the more frequent feedings probably need to be. For instance, the above described feeding schedule would either be for a tank with little "picking surface" or a tank with little algae growth. The more algae growth or picking surface, the less frequent the feedings must be (probably no less than one feeding per day though).

Last is the other animals in the tank. If there are competitors of the same food (i.e., algae), then you would think that the angel is more likely to look for other food sources (your corals). This, of course, much like the "lack of picking surface" situation described above, should be able to be remedied by providing more frequent feedings of the right foods.

Something that I'm still unsure of is whether they seem to pick at a particular kind of coral, or corals of a particular color. Open brains, zoas, and some leathers seem to be a commonly picked on corals, and probably any other "fleshy" coral that tends to exude a good amount of mucous, but it doesn't seem that color plays a factor (or at least based on the relatively small amount of information I'm dealing with so far). Even still, I think if introduced in the right way and provided with a sufficient diet, that these corals should also be safe.

So, up to this point, I would be interested to see if someone that has taken all (or most) of the steps above still had a problem with their angel, and if you didn't do one/a few of the steps, which one(s). I'm not saying that there are not exceptions, and that people can't "get away" with doing less, but I'm trying to find a process that will almost guarantee success with this beautiful fish in a reef tank, and my guess is that the process described above might just do the trick.

Keep the feedback coming guys (the larger the data pool, the better)... anyone out there do the steps described above and STILL have had troubles with their angel in their reef???
 
IMO, Tank size does matter with angels in a reef, & not just Centropyge & Paras either. ALL angels. Bigger tank equals more LR to graze on plus more corals dilutes the damages to lesser levels.
I forgot: I did not quarantine the C. bicolor as these fish are delicate & acclimate poorly. & Poor feeders initially (usually). I had lots of nuisance algage after the crash, so he & a juvi Foxface Rabbitfish had lots to munch on.. It was more important to get her feeding ASAP to me.

Matthew
 
Good point Sheol... if you are introducing a "more sensitive" angel (i.e., Bicolor or Regal Angel) directly to the DT (of course recognizing the risk of introducing any diseases/parasites that it might be carrying as well), then it certainly could be a much lower risk of "picking" if there is a good amount of algae or sponge growing in the tank at time of introduction.

Although, I still think that if the quarantine step is skipped, then the "picking risk" aspect will still be there, since if they run out of algae (or other food found on LR like sponge) before you've completely acclimated them to prepared foods, then you still might have to go fishing...
 
But if the steps are followed, I think that a dwarf angel (and maybe other angels) might be some day considered safe to put in most (if not all) types of reef tanks.

I completely disagree with your post. Dwarf angels will never one day be considered to be a safe reef angel across the board. No matter what, there are still going to be those with the personalities that lead to decimation of some corals, especially those that are fleshy.

It would be best to acknowledge that these angles are a gamble in any tank, except for a FOWLR.
 
Melanotaenia: I think you've made your opinion clear from prior posts. I don't feel that you repeating yourself over and over is necessarily constructive to this post (no matter how much we may disagree over the topic).
 
I do agree with him that you will never be able to blanket dwarf angles with a reef safe title. There will always be those that decimate the corals, like the lemonpeels.
 
I'm not discounting melanotaenia's opinion, because everyone is entitled to an opinion. I don't, however, understand posting an opinion on the fact that angels will or will not be considered to be reef-safe, and then continue to re-post the same opinion without any additional insight or reasons for the post when someone's already made their opinion clear in previous posts. However, if something NEW is added to their opinion (such as additional evidence/experiences/etc), I can see the reason for re-posting, because that would actually help the discussion and show any "holes" in my (or others) opinions (which I'm not afraid to concede). Otherwise, it just seems like a waste of time for those people out there trying to read through this thread for informational purposes because they have to filter through several posts that don't add anything to the thread.

Username: you are absolutely correct. I should have been clearer in my statement that melanotaenia quoted. What I should have said is that "it is not unreasonable to think that maybe one day certain dwarf angels (and certain other types of angels) can be considered safe to put in most (if not all) reef tanks that are currently thought to be 'gambles'." As you pointed out, there may be certain angels that even after being put through all of the steps I've outlined above, will still pick at certain corals because their dietary needs are almost impossible to meet entirely in our home aquariums.
 
Sorry to hear about the continued trouble falconut...

Zebodog: so do you actually feed 2-3 times per day, or do you feed the angel one time per day, but with a mixture of the above mentioned foods? Also, was there any algae growth at all in the tank?

Thanks again everyone for the feedback and updates...

Feed the tank 2-3 times per day.
Yes, there is algae growth in the tank as well.
 
I understood the risks I am undertaking with my Centropyge in my Reeftank. But to me, Salt water angels are integral to reef ( I'd hate to go diving & not see any!).
****
It IS important to be aware of the habits & risks of each organism in our tanks, but I avoid blanket labels like Reef-safe or NOT.. My ocellaris clown has killed several coral colonies by flipping/uprooting/knocking over because they apparentley threatened her host. definitely NOT reefsafe! And I'm not laughing this time..

Matthew
All this being said, I will never put a Lemonpeel in my tank! LOL
 
[b]update[/b]

update

I have a very sad and upsetting update for this thread. Last night I got home and was looking at the tank to wind down like I usually do. I noticed that my pink birdsnest's polyps had retracted and some of the skeleton was showing at the tips. While staring at it and trying to figure out why this was happening my lovely coral beauty cruised right up to it and started nipping at the tips. After flipping my lid I flashed back to replying to this thread. I believe I was cursed by this thread. :) Kidding. Seriously though this sucks. No changes in the tank what so ever. I have 3 mini colonies of this coral all on one rock and the one that was being picked at made contact with a GBTA about a week ago. So my guess is the sting either weakened the colony enough to catch the CB's attention, or something that the coral may be doing to heal itself is attracting it. My plan so far to observe, if it continues then I will remove that colony and see if CB starts acting right. If not he's gonna have to find a new home. :wave:
 
Plus, aside from some Favia LPS & a few Discosoma corallimorphs & one Rhodactis, there isn't much but really nice LR in the tank.

there isn't much but really nice LR in the tank.
:lolspin::lolspin::lolspin:

:lolspin:
Yea I'm still laughing!
I just took my bicolor back to the lfs because it was picking at my corals. It especially liked my favia. I only had about 6 little tiny frags. The favia was the biggest coral in my tank. Notice I say WAS. I dont know if the favia will recover.
 
I'm still doing research on my end... Here's some more food for thought...

Angels (or specifically the dwarf angels) that are given a sufficient amount of algae in their diets and are fed 2 or 3 times per day seem to not cause irreparable damage to corals/clams, because their picking seems to be more investigatory (if they pick at the coral/clams at all), and if anything, results in a lack of constant polyp extension during the daylight hours, which, to me, would not be considered irreparable damage.

Whereas angels that are fed once daily or are fed frequently but not sufficient amounts of algae tend to be the ones that pick incessantly at the corals/clams resulting in their demise (or the fish being removed).

I guess the main point here is that there is a difference in just "picking" at the corals vs. "devouring" the corals...

Plus the trick is getting the angel to ingest the algae matter you are introducing as food (if there isn't sufficent amounts in the tank), hence the importance of quarantining the angel before introducing it into the DT.
 
I'm planning on picking up a young Flame Angel in a couple of months and following the steps I've outlined before in this thread to see if the number of corals and clams that are now in my tank are too much to resist, or are just an afterthought to him/her because it is being sufficiently nourished.

I admit, I'll be crossing my fingers because I would hate to lose some of the livestock in my tank, but honestly, I'm not overly worried. We'll see, and I'll let you all know how it goes.
 
Alright... I took the plunge. Albeit, a little sooner than I was planning (since I just posted about a week ago that I was planning on getting one in a couple of months). But I just couldn't pass up the one I saw in the LFS today and there was no particular reason to not get one except for finding a good candidate. There was several Flame Angels, but only two that looked to be young juveniles (only about 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 inches each).

So I had one of the LFS employees feed both of the young Angels some frozen Mysis and Brine. The first one was picking at the food, but just spitting it back out. Then when he fed the second one, it was eating like a freakin' pig. Thus, I chose him to be the lucky winner to either enjoy a wonderful life in my tank, or enjoy a buffet of my corals and clams while all along I'm cursing my decision.

So what I've decided to do, since there seems to be many people that have had conflicting experiences under varying circumstances, is to post updates on the progress of my Flame Angel "experiment". I know that this will not be the "end all" in determining whether this particular type of Dwarf Angel is "reef-safe", but I think it will be a step in the right direction. And if it fails, then I will fall in line with everyone else that says keeping any angel in a reef tank is a "crapshoot". So here it goes...
 
DAY 1:

As stated in the previous post, I obtained a male 1 1/4- 1 1/2 inch long juvenile Flame Angel fish (or at least I think it is male if the literature I've read is correct that the flame angels with a yellow/orange body with a red rim are males) from somewhere (the LFS employee did not know... but not a surprise since typically only the wholesalers will have that info in my experience).

As I suggested in my previously posted approach, I set up a 10 gallon Quarantine Tank with a Sponge Filter, and some sand and LR from my DT about 1 month ago, with all of the parameters at good levels (Ammonia-0; Nitrate- 5ppm; Nitrite-0). It sits right next to my DT for now, getting him on the same light schedule as his soon-to-be tankmates (which include a Solar Fairy Wrasse, a Yellow Coris Wrasse, a Randalls Goby and Pistol Shrimp, and a Starry Blenny). I'll also be feeding him at the same times as the DT, to get him more in sync when he finally does end up in the DT (which I don't have a set timeline really... he just won't be going in until he is readily accepting my prepared foods which will include frozen mysis/brine/angel formula, formula 1 & 2 flake foods, and nori).

I acclimated him for about 50 minutes and placed him in the quarantine tank... and viola, he made himself at home. Checking out his new digs, pecking at the LR already in there and then slowly settling down by finding the cave I prepared for him.

About 5 hours later, I tried my luck at feeding him for the first time since he's been transferred from the LFS... I mixed up some frozen brine and mysis with a few drops of Garlic extract, and it didn't take him too long to gobble every morsel I put into the tank. I pushed him a little further to see if he would eat a little piece of nori, but with no luck yet. That's all I will feed him for today, but I'll try to feed him 2 to 3 times everyday, each time feeding him a little brine/mysis, but then mixing in something new little by little until he is readily eating everything.

Tomorrow, I'll see if he takes flakes (both Formula 1 and 2) along with his frozen preparations... I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes.
 
DAY 2:

So this morning I tried my luck at feeding my new Flame Angel Formula 1 & 2 flakes, and to my surprise, he ate everything without hesitation. So later today I will try the Nori again to see if he'll take it. It looks like the food acclimation is going much smoother than I thought it would be, or at least he is accepting everything at a quicker pace than I thought. We'll see what happens with the Nori...
 

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