Debating Ich Transfer on Corals/Inverts

My .02.
My FOWLR had had ich when I bought it running.
I did the 72 day fallow period, with 2 copper treatments for the fish. The fish were ich free from the 30 day mark.
They went back to DT and no signs of ich for a week.
The only new addition was a knobby starfish. 3 days later - ich.
Went back to the store and the tank that the starfish had been in also had ich.
Co-incidence? Maybe.
I will no longer take chances. Except for snails, which I know are on a separate system, every thing gets QT'd. I have too much time into these tanks to watch them get sick.
Its your choice.
 
BigJohnny said:
No I didnt delete it to back track i deleted it to say something more productive because it already had been said. Ill say it again, "a 72 day qt period would be ideal", because that would eliminate any chance of ich transmission, regardless of how it got in (like free swimming in the water it came in, which is possible and ive said that before on the other 2 threads you've tried to twist my words on), i never agreed that protomonts attach to inverts or corals. Again, if you think I'm going to debate with you when your putting words in my mouth you are mistaken.

Please continue though, at this point it's just entertainment for me. Your really grasping for straws here bud. Why don't you try and stay focused on actually saying something productive, rather than failing at pathetic attempts to attack me personally. This is the 3rd thread your doing this on, wow is right!
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Hey I'm sorry if you thought it was a personal attack. It's not always personal if someone challenges your assertion. You posted the exact same thing in two very similar threads, then told people they couldn't debate what you said. I posted in this thread because you said you created it for me to debate you. Believe me, I'm not following you around this forum to personally attack you. I just don't like people spreading false information and then not allowing anyone to debate it. You said it's not possible for tomonts to attach to frag plugs and snails the same way they attach to rocks and sand. When I see false information posted on this site I have to challenge that because I don't want people to believe that false information and have the same thing happen to them and to the person who posted directly above me.

I said I don't believe 72 days is necessary. In tropical temps it was proven that ich can survive as tomonts up to 28 days. I do an extra week or two to be on the safe side. Tomonts can attach to snails or frag plugs the same as they can attach to rocks and sand. There are many posts where people got ich after adding inverts to their tank.
 
MellowReefer said:
Hey I'm sorry if you thought it was a personal attack. It's not always personal if someone challenges your assertion. You posted the exact same thing in two very similar threads, then told people they couldn't debate what you said. I posted in this thread because you said you created it for me to debate you. Believe me, I'm not following you around this forum to personally attack you. I just don't like people spreading false information and then not allowing anyone to debate it. You said it's not possible for tomonts to attach to frag plugs and snails the same way they attach to rocks and sand. When I see false information posted on this site I have to challenge that because I don't want people to believe that false information and have the same thing happen to them and to the person who posted directly above me.

I said I don't believe 72 days is necessary. In tropical temps it was proven that ich can survive as tomonts up to 28 days. I do an extra week or two to be on the safe side. Tomonts can attach to snails or frag plugs the same as they can attach to rocks and sand. There are many posts where people got ich after adding inverts to their tank.
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how about you stick the topic at hand. For that reason I'm going to ignore your comments about the nature of your presence on all 3 of my threads.

It's not false information, I stated it as "the findings of my research" you have no idea if that's true or false because you have no idea what i found in my research. I also was not "spreading false information" , I stated it as just the findings of my research and that's it. I have found 0 conclusive evidence to this day, of protomonts encrusting on corals/frag plugs or inverts. thats a true statement, I haven't found anything that proves that.

I never stated it as "the absolute truth, undeniable fact", but what's funny is you state your opinion on the matter as if it is a fact, yet you have no scientific evidence to prove it. I have said myself it is difficult to prove either way. The bottom line is we have different OPINIONS. The difference is that you claim yours is a fact but have no direct evidence, which is why I disagree with you.

All you've provided to this point is your anecdotal account, and a quote from a 30 year old study saying "Protomonts attach to substrate/rock/or other hard surfaces". Oh yea and you also said "most of us know its true". If that's considered sufficient evidence to call something a fact, I'm dick tracy.

As far as me asking people not to debate. I'm only going to say this one last time. I asked people not to debate/challenge other people's perspectives from the get go, on 2 other threads that I created. This all started because I posted "the findings of my research", before which I also said "I am not disagreeing with anyone", and you immediately quoted me and said I was wrong. I think I responded once and then could see it was getting out of hand so reminded that a polling thread on qt procedures for corals/inverts is no place for an extended debate on ich transfer.

This thread however is about debate, so by all means, debate. I created this because of you remember?
 
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since this is about debating ich transfer on corals/inverts, I certainly will debate your latest argument:

MellowReefer said:
I said I don't believe 72 days is necessary. In tropical temps it was proven that ich can survive as tomonts up to 28 days. I do an extra week or two to be on the safe side. Tomonts can attach to snails or frag plugs the same as they can attach to rocks and sand. There are many posts where people got ich after adding inverts to their tank.
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I certainly can't challenge what you believe, that's up to you, however there are 2 things I have a problem with in your argument:

1. "Tomonts can attach to snails or frag plugs"

- that's your opinion, not a scientific fact. If it is, show me scientific evidence.

2. "There are many posts where people got ich after adding inverts to their tank"

- I would argue that there are many posts where people BELIEVE or CLAIM they got ich from adding inverts to there tank. Each case would have to be looked into on an individual basis, and also requires overlooking the fact that the reliance on human honesty would disqualify those accounts as sufficient scientific proof.

Oh btw, I never said you can't get ich from buying a coral or invert, it can be present in the free swimming stage in the water from an infected tank. That is a fact. Can you prove that the people in those posts didn't get any water in their tanks? No, you cant.

The only thing we disagree on is whether or not protomonts will attach to coral/frag plugs or inverts. If you have no additional evidence to argue your side, I suggest we clear the floor for someone who may.
 
So where is your scientific research saying it cannot attach to inverts? Because if you don't have any, this is just another pointless debate of opinions.. and most people do not favor your opinion.. because why risk it? Some people have huge tanks that's too much work to pull apart for ich..

You want a debate? List some facts..
 
m0nkie said:
So where is your scientific research saying it cannot attach to inverts? Because if you don't have any, this is just another pointless debate of opinions.. and most people do not favor your opinion.. because why risk it? Some people have huge tanks that's too much work to pull apart for ich..

You want a debate? List some facts..
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First of all, you don't speak for "most people" but thanks for that.

You've got this all twisted. Ive never claimed my opinion on the matter was a fact, so i dont need to present scientific evidence to validate it. I believe it based on my research/findings which I've stated before. There is no scientific evidence that I have found proving protomonts attach to inverts or corals. So why should I believe they do? MellowReefer said they do, or we all know they do etc. That's not a fact so I called him out on acting like it was. If you say something like its a fact, you have to prove it. i don't rely on faith here, and neither does science.

I started this thread because I'm hoping various veterans will have some insight / proof one way or another. Hardly pointless, it also just started. it's my thread so if you don't like it just leave......no one is forcing you to participate.

Btw, I can believe that a 72 qt period isn't necessary but do it anyway just in case. So don't get into the why risk it arguement, I'd prefer to deal in the actual topic rather than level of caution.
 
gone fishin said:
http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LE...du/fa164/RK=0/RS=6Xdmjj_HKRvy.DevbxeUCDYAML8-

Under the biosecurity section it discusses the topic at hand.
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Hey gone fishin, thanks for participating. I read what your referring to however all it says is it recommends quarantining inverts, it does not say why besides "could have been infected". Certainly seems like a cautionary approach just to be safe which ofcourse makes sense. the main topic of debate has become how the transfer can occur. There is no discussion regarding specifically attaching to the corals/inverts in the linked study (atleast not in the section you referenced, I haven't read the whole thing yet)

You'll notice infection by aerisolization was demonstrated and therefore proven (although with a different parasite so not completely credible):

"Aerosolization as a method of spreading parasites has been demonstrated with Ichthyophthirius (Wooster et al. 2001)"

That's the sort of proof I'm looking for that ich has attached to corals/inverts. I just can't find any! There's proof of everything else ich related, just not that.

Thanks!
 
BigJohnny said:
First of all, you don't speak for "most people" but thanks for that.

You've got this all twisted. Ive never claimed my opinion on the matter was a fact, so i dont need to present scientific evidence to validate it. I believe it based on my research/findings which I've stated before. There is no scientific evidence that I have found proving protomonts attach to inverts or corals. So why should I believe they do? MellowReefer said they do, or we all know they do etc. That's not a fact so I called him out on acting like it was. If you say something like its a fact, you have to prove it. i don't rely on faith here, and neither does science.

I started this thread because I'm hoping various veterans will have some insight / proof one way or another. Hardly pointless, it also just started. it's my thread so if you don't like it just leave......no one is forcing you to participate.

Btw, I can believe that a 72 qt period isn't necessary but do it anyway just in case. So don't get into the why risk it arguement, I'd prefer to deal in the actual topic rather than level of caution.
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First of all.. most people speak for most people.. and this forum has a general consensus that ich can transfer through corals and inverts. You refuse to believe it. That's up to you..

And if you dont have scientific research.. and you don't consider publications/books as science.. so why should anyone believe you? Based on your 2 month old reefing experience? You want a debate, dont be afraid of different opinions. Present your facts and your research and prove us wrong. Put some inverts from a ich infested tank into yours. Easy as that..

If not, you are just hoping for some magical veteran expert to chime in and say "go for it.. it's 1000% safe". Well that's not happening.. so good luck finding that answer. There's been hundreds of threads about this topic.. it never happened before and it never will.

Lol.. you post a thread on the internet and getting butt hurt from replies.. go to the disease forum snd start reading up. Plenty of veterans with veteran answers on how to deal with ich.. guess what? Quarantine everything wet is always the answer. Or else risk introducing ich.

Then again.. this is your thread.. do whatever you like with it.
 
That was pretty much the extent of the discussion. I have not really seen any papers specifically on the topic of discussion. The best I got is an assumption on my part that if the tomont's encyst on substrate and rock, then by extension it is plausible to me that they could also encyst on other surfaces such as shells, frag plugs or similar.

I do agree the likely hood of getting protomonts in water with the inverts is more likely than tomonts. But I would not rule out the tomont possibility.
 
m0nkie said:
First of all.. most people speak for most people.. and this forum has a general consensus that ich can transfer through corals and inverts. You refuse to believe it. That's up to you..

And if you dont have scientific research.. and you don't consider publications/books as science.. so why should anyone believe you? Based on your 2 month old reefing experience? You want a debate, dont be afraid of different opinions. Present your facts and your research and prove us wrong. Put some inverts from a ich infested tank into yours. Easy as that..

If not, you are just hoping for some magical veteran expert to chime in and say "go for it.. it's 1000% safe". Well that's not happening.. so good luck finding that answer. There's been hundreds of threads about this topic.. it never happened before and it never will.

Lol.. you post a thread on the internet and getting butt hurt from replies.. go to the disease forum snd start reading up. Plenty of veterans with veteran answers on how to deal with ich.. guess what? Quarantine everything wet is always the answer. Or else risk introducing ich.

Then again.. this is your thread.. do whatever you like with it.
Click to expand...

No most people speak for themselves haha, it's their mouths after all. Although I can only speak for myself, I can't speak for most people.[emoji6] You appear to believe you are the chosen speaker for the people however, which btw, is not what were discussing here......we're discussing science and proof, not the general consensus. Not advice from veterans (good advice btw), not whether you have a gut feeling, nor why you have a pokemon emblem.

Your missing the point. I never said you cant get ich from corals/inverts, i said i dont see any proof that protomonts attach to corals/inverts. It doesnt matter what my experience is (a lot longer than 2 months just fyi) or whether you believe it or not, because we're not taking about beliefs or advice. We are talking about SCIENCE. Nothing you just said addressed that.

Unless you have proof of protomonts attaching to corals/inverts, don't talk to me directly. You can say whatever you want on the topic on the thread however.

It is also clear to me by your pokemon emblem and use of childish language that I shouldn't be debating with someone of your maturity anyway.

Thanks!
 
gone fishin said:
That was pretty much the extent of the discussion. I have not really seen any papers specifically on the topic of discussion. The best I got is an assumption on my part that if the tomont's encyst on substrate and rock, then by extension it is plausible to me that they could also encyst on other surfaces such as shells, frag plugs or similar.

I do agree the likely hood of getting protomonts in water with the inverts is more likely than tomonts. But I would not rule out the tomont possibility.
Click to expand...

Yea its very surprising to me that there isn't more on the subject since ich is such an important aspect of the reefkeeping/fish keeping hobby.

I certainly understand the coorelation between between rock/substrate and other hard surfaces but they've proven rock/substrate, why not these "other hard surfaces". You'd think it'd be documented. I know glass has been documented.

The thing about inverts is that they are not stationary and they are living. They also are not as porous as rock or substrate. That is another reason I believe it to be less than ideal if not impossible for them to attach. Ofcourse this is just speculation.

As far as corals, the living/porous arguement comes to mind as well, although a plating monti would seem like a great spot to set up camp[emoji6]

I definitely have not ruled out the possibility, I just don't think it's very likely and haven't seen any proof of it occurring.

And I certainly understand the "why risk it" arguement. I'm just hoping to find some new concrete info. Maybe I'll do an experiment. Anyone have any ich?[emoji48]
 
I know my DT is infected. I've been lurking in these thread trying to figure a protocol for introducing anything new.
 
It's in "remission". My tank got stressed from a malfunctioning heater and temp probe. I hadn't introduced any new fish when it started. I always dip my corals before introducing them. Now I'm rethinking my protocol for snails and hermits after this discussion. But who's to say the ich in my circumstances wasn't already there? My fishes' immune systems must have been compromised from the environmental stress.
 
regardless of how long you wait in quarantine ie 72 days can't ich be invisible anyways so the only real method of actually eliminating ich for sure is TTM or copper?
 
johnfallon135 said:
regardless of how long you wait in quarantine ie 72 days can't ich be invisible anyways so the only real method of actually eliminating ich for sure is TTM or copper?
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72 days is referring to a fallow period. If you have ich and a tank and remove all fish from that tank for 72 days, the tank will be ich free. The fish that were in there still have to be treated elsewhere with ttm or copper.
 
johnfallon135 said:
can inverts get ich as trophents or only as toments?
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Inverts can't "get" ich, it is a fish parasite. Whether or not they are able to carry the encrusted stage on their shells or other hard surfaces is up for debate. The free swimming stage can be transferred through any amount of water from an infected tank (in a bag of coral or inverts for example) but discarding all the water and doing a 3 day isolation will kill all free swimming stages because there are no fishes to host them.
 
BigJohnny said:
Inverts can't "get" ich, it is a fish parasite. Whether or not they are able to carry the encrusted stage on their shells or other hard surfaces is up for debate. The free swimming stage can be transferred through any amount of water from an infected tank (in a bag of coral or inverts for example) but discarding all the water and doing a 3 day isolation will kill all free swimming stages because there are no fishes to host them.
Click to expand...

if they potentially encrust on inverts shells then do people quarantine inverts, additional live rock, and corals for 3 months as well?
 
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