deworming debate

gtstylez87

New member
A friend and I are have a debate on how to administer PraziPro to a seahorse. i read that your suppose to gut load it into live adult brine then feed it to them, but he said that you can soak it into the frozen food for about 20 minutes and it will do the same thing. i used the gut loading method in the past and it work for me, but he is deworming a seahorse he just caught using him soaking method. Is there a real difference in the two methods? Has anyone used the method before and if so did it work?
 
I would be concerned about the medicine washing off before the seahorse ate it. At least with gutloading the brine, you know the meds get inside the SH.
 
There is some studies to back up the gut loading method. At least with other meds getting into the artemia. I don't know of any studies to back up the soaking method and there is no way to know if and how many internal worms may be in the seahorse and if this should work. So in other words, he may do this and the seahorse ends up fine and he may believe it worked when in reality, the horse may not have had the worms. Conversely, if the horse ends up with issues, he may blame it on something else when it could have been an internal parasitic issue.

Dan
 
Should have added this to the first post.

I think I would be more comfortable relying on bath treatment than soaking the mysis.

Dan
 
I agree with Dan. I've never trusted food soaks for anything. We gutload Artemia or use a bath.
 
Dan, I have yet to find any proof that liquid medicines are taken up in any significant amounts by artemia, without first being emulsified.
Artemia filter their food by catching food particles, initially with the setae of the second antennae (which also produce the locomotion) that pass the particles to the mandibles which lead into the digestive system. As they evolve, the thoracopods perform this function.
Little water is taken up in this process, unlike clams which we are more familiar with that remove food from the water that passes through them internally.
Anything I find from the Artemia Reference Centre talks about emulsifying to feed meds to the artemia.
Do you have any links to information on this?
Whenever I use a liquid medicine, I emulsify it first.
I have also tried using FOCUS with spirulina powder and liquid meds but I'm not sure yet if it really is working that way.
 
In many cases liquid medicines are suspensions or the medicine is very fine particles in a liquid. Praziquantel for example comes in both liquid and powder form.

When I gut load I do mix it in with enrichments for better uptake.

Dan
 
Bioencapsulation of Praziquantel in Adult Artemia
Allender et. al. 2010

Abstract:
A description of bioencapsulation of praziquantel in adult Artemia for 2.5 g/L, 5 g/L, and 10 g/L treatment baths is presented. Praziquantel was detected in adult brine shrimp tissue after enrichment periods of 15 min, 30 min, 1 hr, 2 hr, 4 hr, 8 hr, 12 hr, and 24 hr. The assays were performed using high performance liquid chromatography. There was variable uptake by Artemia at all three bath treatments over time. Despite early variability, all three baths showed a terminal increase in praziquantel concentration. Highest concentration of praziquantel was seen in the initial sample (5 g/L) or the last sample (2.5 g/L and 10 g/L). The highest concentration of praziquantel at any one point was observed in the 5 g/L treatment bath at 15 minutes. Based on percentage, more praziquantel was incorporated into shrimp at the 10 g/L than either of the other treatments. Non-predictable fl uctuations were seen in the concentration of praziquantel in both the treatment water and control water. Concentration of praziquantel in the control water increased in each treatment group over each of the fi nal three time points. Neither total praziquantel in the treatment bath (shrimp and water) or the control bath were consistent among any treatment group. Survival of shrimp was not affected by concentration, but decreased over time in all treatment baths comparatively. It can be concluded that praziquantel can be successfully, but not reliably, bioencapsulated in adult Artemia.

I think it is important to note that the bioencapsulation was attempted in freshwater and they did not use any enrichments or emulsifiers which I suspect would have altered the results.

Dan
 
i am with peka thinking it will all wash off. the research does support the method. from my research they said it took 2 hours to take in the medicine, but according to the research it only takes 15 minutes.
 
Thanks Dan, but it does sound like hit and miss without emulsifying it.
Also, 10g/L seems like a lot to have to use.
important to note that the bioencapsulation was attempted in freshwater
If this is the case I wonder how the heck they managed to keep the artemia alive for the longer terms up to 24 hours as I can't keep them alive in fresh water for anywhere near that long.
I also was wondering WHY they would do this in fresh water?
Perhaps they mean fresh salt water?
 
from my research they said it took 2 hours to take in the medicine, but according to the research it only takes 15 minutes.
Each drug seems to have a different ideal time frame for maximum or therapeutic levels. In most cases the gut is packed in 2 hours but in 4 hours it is also incorporated into the tissues doubling the amount. Some drugs can take as long as 12 hours to reach max levels. We use normally use the 4 hour mark.

Ray you would also be interested in knowing that in one study, Metronidazole was significantly inhibited in uptake when mixed with DC DHA Selco.

Dan
 
Dan, did the study test with other meds and/or with other enrichments besides the Selco?
I tend to dose meds in brine on their own and do a separate batch of enriched brine for nutrition, rather than doing them together.
I have never used a Selco type product since I switched to the Algamac's that you turned me on to. I was always having to throw out the unused portions of emulsions as they aged, but don't have that problem with the Algamac's.

As for medicine dosing, I think the only med I don't emulsify is the fenbendazole (SafeGuard) that I have in paste formation and I put it in a blender with Focus to micronize the paste, hoping the Focus will help keep the med bound in the particles.
 
There is a gazillion different studies with different meds. Each seems to be very specific. It would be more helpful to us if they were summarized and compared different methods. It would also be nice to have a chart with the meds and best method and gut loading time.

You want to be careful with the fenbendazole paste. The medication is not evenly distributed through the paste and is designed to use the whole tube at a time. Since fenbendazole is insoluble in water, I prefer to use the liquid suspension.

Dan
 
The medication is not evenly distributed through the paste and is designed to use the whole tube at a time. Since fenbendazole is insoluble in water, I prefer to use the liquid suspension.
That I didn't know.
However, it's all I can get because vets here will not prescribe meds for fish of any kind, even the one I take my dog to.
I guess we'll never have major studies like that done that will be really helpful to hobbyists needing to restore the health of their seahorses.
I DO know that without the information that you share with others, I'd not be where I am today in the hobby.
 
Back
Top