Did you know that the main feature of the skimmer is not to lower nutrients?

[hydor_italy]

The skimmer is important above all for oxygenating the aquarium, and removing almost all the proteins, but also vitamins, fats, amino acids, carbohydrates, deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA), but also the organic compounds responsible for the yellowing of the water, toxins emitted by corals, uneaten food, bacteria, macro and micro plankton, eggs, coral sperm and other similar compounds.

This is why a skimmer should never be missing in a marine aquarium.

More information about the Hydor E-Skim DC here: E-SKIM DC

#hydor #passionforexcellence #poweredbyhydor #madeinitaly #eskymdc#tutorials #tutorial #facts #fact #aquariums #aquarium #aquariumhobby #aquariumhobbyist #tips #productdesign #nanoreef #reeftank #saltwateraquarium #reefer #reefaddict #reefpack #reefsofinstagram #coraladdict #coraladdiction #ilovemyreeftank #reefnerd #saltwatertank #reeftanksofinstagram #reefers4reefers #skimmer #skimmer

 

[JohnL]

I think @Timfish has a different take Skimmerless

 

[wvned]

We all have our opinions.
LOL
I run 2 big skimmers
Must be why I cant grow anything.

 

[Timfish]

I think @Timfish has a different take Skimmerless

Just a little different.

Skimmers do not remove the sugars (Dissolved Combined Neutral Sugars, DCNS) that can promote oxygen depleting microbial growth and pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. At best skimmers only remove about 30% of the Dissolved Organic Carbon (DOC aka "carbon dosing") from a system. Perhaps most important, skimmers are arbitrarily disrupting the microbial processes in reef system. For those interested here's some links:

Human and soil micriobiome stuff (this is the best research showing long term effects of disrupted microbiomes):

How Microbiomes Affect Fear | Quanta Magazine

New studies help to explain how microbes in the gut can shape a host’s fear responses.

www.quantamagazine.org

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1745691618809379

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=human+microbiomes

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=save+our+soils

Coral microbiome stuff

"Coral Reefs in the Microbial Seas" This video compliments Rohwer's book of the same title (Paper back is ~$20, Kindle is ~$10), both deal with the conflicting roles of the different types of DOC in reef ecosystems. While there is overlap bewteen his book and the video both have information not covered by the other and together give a broader view of the complex relationships found in reef ecosystems

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism.
Coral DOC improves oxygen (autotrophy), algae DOC reduces oxygen (heterotrophy).

Influence of coral and algal exudates on microbially mediated reef metabolism

Benthic primary producers in tropical reef ecosystems can alter biogeochemical cycling and microbial processes in the surrounding seawater. In order to quantify these influences, we measured rates of photosynthesis, respiration, and dissolved organic carbon (DOC) exudate release by the dominant...

peerj.com

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages.

Coral and macroalgal exudates vary in neutral sugar composition and differentially enrich reef bacterioplankton lineages - PubMed

Increasing algal cover on tropical reefs worldwide may be maintained through feedbacks whereby algae outcompete coral by altering microbial activity. We hypothesized that algae and coral release compositionally distinct exudates that differentially alter bacterioplankton growth and community...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Sugar enrichment provides evidence for a role of nitrogen fixation in coral bleaching

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/gcb.13695

Global microbialization of coral reefs

Global microbialization of coral reefs - Nature Microbiology

Analysis of 60 sites in three ocean basins suggests that overgrowth of fleshy algae on coral reefs supports higher microbial abundances dominated by copiotrophic, potentially pathogenic bacteria via the provision of dissolved inorganic carbon.

www.nature.com

Feldman's research on skimmers and bacterial counts:

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 1

The Development of a Method for the Quantitative Evaluation of Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Protein skimmers have become indispensable for many aquarists who strive to maintain the high water quality necessary to keep stony corals.

reefs.com

Protein Skimmer Performance, Pt 2

Further Studies on Protein Skimmer Performance

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. Many factors contribute to the 'value' of a skimmer to an aquarist, including quality of construction, size, footprint, noise level, ease of cleaning, energy efficiency of the pump, and of course, the ability...

reefs.com

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate

Elemental Analysis of Skimmate: What Does a Protein Skimmer Actually Remove from Aquarium Water?

Department of Chemistry, The Pennsylvania State University, University Park, PA 16802. The chemical/elemental composition of skimmate generated by an H&S 200-1260 skimmer on a 175-gallon reef tank over the course of several days or a week had some surprises.

reefs.com

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water

Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration

What are the bacteria populations in the water column of reef tanks, and how does that value compare with bacterial counts in authentic reef water? Does carbon dosing indeed increase water column bacteria populations (i.e., is growth carbon limited)? Does mechanical filtration (protein skimming...

reefs.com

 

[hydor_italy]

Great links, thanks @Timfish but nobody here is saying we don't have to use the skimmer, I'm the first to think of the importance of skimmer. Yes it helps in the process of lower nutrients, but above all it prevents them from forming. If we put water with nitrates and phosphates in a basin, these will not lower despite using the skimmer. Don't you think so?

 

[Timfish]

Great links, thanks @Timfish but nobody here is saying we don't have to use the skimmer, I'm the first to think of the importance of skimmer.

So, no thoughts on how skimmers hamper or get in the way of sustainability by arbitrarily altering the microbomes in a reef system.

Yes it helps in the process of lower nutrients, but above all it prevents them from forming. If we put water with nitrates and phosphates in a basin, these will not lower despite using the skimmer. Don't you think so?

To be blunt, I don't see how your example of water in a basin even comes close to being relevant. It doesn't come anywhere close to the complex biological processes and food webs that exist in reef ecosystems. Further, I don't see how you can substantiate your belief that skimmers can prevent nutrients from forming when there are microbial processes in the various biomes, including cryptic sponges and corals, that are converting the available N2 into other forms of nitrogen available for heterotrophic organisms.

Actually, using one of your justifications for using skimmers, it seems to me the opposite can be argued. By mixing lots of air with water N2 is assured to be kept at saturation or above thus minimizing any localized drop reducing the conversion to other forms.

 

[Timfish]

@hydor_italy Another complaint I have against the skimmer industry and maybe you can answer me is I don't see any mteric used that allows a consumer to compare what one model or brand removes compared to another even though Feldman's research provided two potential metrics. With lights we have multiple metrics a consumer or independant third party can use to see what an item does and compares to another item. The same with pumps. But there are no metrics I see being used by skimmer manufacterers that allow a consumer or third party to use to quantify what a skimmer is doing or compare one skimmer to another. What metric are you using to determining how your skimmer performs better than another?

 

[wvned]

So, no thoughts on how skimmers hamper or get in the way of sustainability by arbitrarily altering the microbomes in a reef system.



To be blunt, I don't see how your example of water in a basin even comes close to being relevant. It doesn't come anywhere close to the complex biological processes and food webs that exist in reef ecosystems. Further, I don't see how you can substantiate your belief that skimmers can prevent nutrients from forming when there are microbial processes in the various biomes, including cryptic sponges and corals, that are converting the available N2 into other forms of nitrogen available for heterotrophic organisms.

Actually, using one of your justifications for using skimmers, it seems to me the opposite can be argued. By mixing lots of air with water N2 is assured to be kept at saturation or above thus minimizing any localized drop reducing the conversion to other forms.

Almost anything can be argued.
Just for the sake of arguing.
I think water in a basin is as relevant as a video about dirt. To be blunt.

I have to admit I have seen your post 286 times now.
Dont want a skimmer, don't use one. It's your tank.

My tank would roll over and die if I didn't use mine.

 

[hydor_italy]

@Timfish I think there are many ways to justify or not the use of a skimmer in a marine aquarium. Scientifically there are many more theories in favor of its use than against. This does not mean that there may not be cases in which it cannot be used.

But, until the skimmer (Berlin method) began to be used, corals in the aquarium did not survive, apart from exceptions that could be counted on the fingers of one hand.... int the world.

Even today there are many more examples of wonderful aquariums with the skimmer than without it.

As far as metrics are concerned, the ratio between sucked air, treated water, skimmer volume and contact time is generally used. These parameters affect the export of DOM, DOC and POM. Yes, you are right, it is difficult to compare different skimmers, just as it is difficult to do with movement pumps, with feed, with the yield of most of the products that are inserted into the aquarium.

 

[jason2459]

Skimmers are a useful tool to inject ozone if that's your thing, potentially help increase or control pH, potential help clean up after coral warfare, etc

But there's certainly plenty of examples of great aquariums using them and not using them. Just one tool and method of the trade.

 

[wvned]

Today I was mucking around in my tanks cleaning the glass and scrubbing stuff with a toothbrush. I raised a big mess of stuff blowing around in the current. A short time later it's all gone.
A skimmer is all I use to clean and polish my water of particulates.

These systems have some medium size tangs, a koran angel and 2 fully grown snowflake eels along with many other fish. When I joined the 180 to the sump I upgraded the skimmer to a SRO-8000i. It probably holds more water than many tanks posted about on here.

Sitting behind it over there is a 36 inch LifeReef skimmer injecting ozone.
I have a powerful belief that passing a lot of air through the water does good things for my system.
Daily water changes. My skimmer pulls 4 gallon a day or every other day into a 5 gallon bucket. I add salt back to maintain salinity straight into the sump when I empty it. Hydros tells me when the bucket is full and adds the water into the system, makes it to from my RODI filter.
In the corner is a 29 gallon tank growing algae and to the right is a 75 gallon tank growing macros and whatever I happen to throw in it.
It did kind of jam up the fish room though.

This has been a very easy to maintain setup for a long time now. Very suitable for an old guy that has days when he just doesn't want to mess with it.

 

[jason2459]

A couple of the skimmers they have at the Omaha zoo aquarium

GFO reactors

Ozone towers

And bio balls

 

[darrick001]

I have been reefing for 25+ years and have used every type of system made. I've seen the evolution of the hobby and in the beginning we only started seeing good results once the skimmer came into existence. We now have a much better understanding of the ocean, corals the processes that take place. In most systems a skimmer is probably necessary. I have not used one in 7 years the first 2 years was a struggle as I learned. Main things I learned is that the skimmer doesn't help your ph if you are using a refugium. Mine went from 7.8-8 to 8.3-8.4 by eliminating air going into my system. I can lower my ph just by adding air from an airstone or allowing a drop on my overflow. ORP is between 438-450. Pods are the single most important animal in your aquarium. They are like little skimmers that search for every spec of uneaten food. Once I started focusing on my pods needs they corrected my ecosystem. It has been running for over 5 years without a water change or any mechanical filtration. Triton ,carbon and food are the only things added. The water is not crystal clear but I'm ok with that. I am not suggesting anyone quit using their skimmer and go to natural filtration as your system will probably fail. It is much easier when starting a new system. A protein skimmer is the easiest method but if your willing to do research and setup a natural system, it can be very rewarding.

 

[wvned]

Outside air. Ends pH problems. A simple fix in my case. Outside air is fed to my ozone system and both skimmers.
My pH and ORP are what I want them to be. This applies to my other parameters too. When they are what you want them to be and not some mysterious result of what you are doing with the tank things become a lot easier.

I used this as a starting point. I had a large UV running but took it out 2 years ago.

I assumed people that are raising fish commercially know what they are doing.

I have a few pods in my system. 2-3 million. My water is clear and colorless.

 

[Timfish]

. . . I assumed people that are raising fish commercially know what they are doing.

I certainly would not assume raising fish commercially in crowded tanks is anywhere close to maintaining the far more complex food webs of a reef ecosystem. Do you have any research on the microbiomes you can link to?

Almost anything can be argued.

Absolutely! With the right argumentation any idea or belief or action can be justified, any fact, event or evidence can be dismissed or ignored.

Just for the sake of arguing.
I think water in a basin is as relevant as a video about dirt. To be blunt.

Then you're missing the point. The examples I linked to are just the tip of the research across the board showing when microbiomes are disrupted bad things follow.

. . . I have to admit I have seen your post 286 times . . .

No. You have not. I have not posted that many times about skimmers. But good use of "exaggeration" in your argumentation.

. . . Dont want a skimmer, don't use one. It's your tank. . . .

Obviously. The reason I stopped using skimmers though, is it became pretty clear they weren't relavent. What I realized back in the '90s looking at systems that were successful or had issues was the successful aquarists were consitant with thier maintenance including water changes. What equipment they had or didn't have wasn't a factor.

. . . My tank would roll over and die if I didn't use mine. . . .

Having spent a great deal of time trying to understand the contradictions I've seen over the last over the last 4 decades in my personal tanks and my clients tanks I'd argue on the basis of all the research I've read and my experiences your system health and coral health would improve along with long term survivability of both if you removed your skimmer. We've touched on how skimmers alter microbiomes and how research shows how disrupted microbiomes lead to chronic and acute conditions for the organisms that rely on those microbiomes. What we haven't touched on is the role of cryptic sponges and their roles in promoting healthy coral ecosystems or creating feedback loops that lead to constant problems and algae dominate ecosystems. Some of the cryptic sponges found in our reef systems do a much better job of processing the labile DOC generated in reef systems than skimmers. These cryptic sponges are ubiquitous in reef ecosystems and remove DOC 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton which are removed by skimmers. They also are beneficial as they are converting it into DIC (alkalinity) and POC which can then be used by other organisms in a system. Pehaps most importantly they are able to remove the hydrophilic DOC skimmers can't remove and can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. So you may credit skimmers for your success but you are ignoring critical aspects of your ecosystem.

Today I was mucking around in my tanks cleaning the glass and scrubbing stuff with a toothbrush. I raised a big mess of stuff blowing around in the current. A short time later it's all gone.

I see the same thing happen when I muck things up in my tanks. However I do want to see some small particulates when I look close at the water column to avoid the system being too clean.

A skimmer is all I use to clean and polish my water of particulates.

I think Charles Delbeek's warning is apropo:

"Our crystal-clear aquaria do not come close to the nutrient loads that swirl around natural reefs. And so when we create low-nutrient water conditions, we still have to deal with the rest of a much more complex puzzle. Much like those who run their aquarium water temperature close to the thermal maximums of corals walk a narrow tight rope, I can't help but think that low-nutrient aquariums may be headed down a similar path." Charles Delbeck, Coral Nov/Dec 2010, pg 127

This has been a very easy to maintain setup for a long time now. Very suitable for an old guy that has days when he just doesn't want to mess with it.

Gotta say I'm pleasantly surprised, didn't expect labor costs to come up. None of my systems need more than an hour or so once a week. My simplest system (only 2 power heads and 2 air pumps) only needed about 45 minutes every 2-3 weeks.

My most elaborate system needed beween an hour and hour and quarter once a week.

And this system I set up in '97 needs less than half an hour weekly. Easily managed by an old fart like me.

My first skimmerless system

Thank you Almees! As you can see from posts here there's individuals afraid of questioning their beliefs. :/ There's more and more research every day showing how critical the right kinds of DOC is to a healthy reef. The stuff on cryptic sponges removing and recycling labile DOC (organic...

forums.reefcentral.com

 

[Timfish]

@Timfish I think there are many ways to justify or not the use of a skimmer in a marine aquarium. Scientifically there are many more theories in favor of its use than against. This does not mean that there may not be cases in which it cannot be used.

Over the years I've seen lots of theories on coral reef systems. But I've also seen advocates ignore research.

A good example I think is the notion that got started a couple decades that the best way to control nuisance alga was to keep PO4 below .001 mg/l. There was even a couple papers used to support that conclusion. One thing seemed incongrous looking at the refferences was the results of one paper was exspoused while the other was ignored even though it showed PO4 on reefs was much higher and just a small percentage had levels below .005 mg/l. As my own experinces pretty much showed there was no correlation between PO4 and nuisance algae and I was aware of Jeron's comment in his book indicating reefs would see levels up to .3 mg/l with upwelling I looked at the one paper used closer. Turns out other researchers had looked at the same question but thier results not only were contradictory they showed the first paper completely missed evidence because of some of the specific methodology used. We now have lots of research showig coral's photobiology can be seriously harmed by restricting phosphates. Turns out maintaining normal reef levels is best.

So, why don't you list your refferences and lets look at them together.

But, until the skimmer (Berlin method) began to be used, corals in the aquarium did not survive, apart from exceptions that could be counted on the fingers of one hand.... int the world.

OK List those 5 examples. When I started my maintenance business back in the mid '90s I did lots of cold calls and saw the whole spectrum of how systems could be set up. Reason I stopped using skimmers back then was I realized they weren't relavant to how successful a reef system was. (All the stuff on microbes and DOC was still 1 to 2 decades in the future.)

Even today there are many more examples of wonderful aquariums with the skimmer than without it.

de Goeij's work shows cryptic sponges are removing DOC 1000X faster than bacterioplankton. Cryptic sponges are ubiquitous in reef systems, even if they're not added directly with wild or maricultured live rock they will show up with corals that are added. You may want to believe those systems are successful because of the equipment used but you are ignoring a whole class of organisms research has shown and continues to show is critical for healthy coral reefs.

 

[wvned]

I certainly would not assume raising fish commercially in crowded tanks is anywhere close to maintaining the far more complex food webs of a reef ecosystem. Do you have any research on the microbiomes you can link to?



Absolutely! With the right argumentation any idea or belief or action can be justified, any fact, event or evidence can be dismissed or ignored.



Then you're missing the point. The examples I linked to are just the tip of the research across the board showing when microbiomes are disrupted bad things follow.



No. You have not. I have not posted that many times about skimmers. But good use of "exaggeration" in your argumentation.



Obviously. The reason I stopped using skimmers though, is it became pretty clear they weren't relavent. What I realized back in the '90s looking at systems that were successful or had issues was the successful aquarists were consitant with thier maintenance including water changes. What equipment they had or didn't have wasn't a factor.



Having spent a great deal of time trying to understand the contradictions I've seen over the last over the last 4 decades in my personal tanks and my clients tanks I'd argue on the basis of all the research I've read and my experiences your system health and coral health would improve along with long term survivability of both if you removed your skimmer. We've touched on how skimmers alter microbiomes and how research shows how disrupted microbiomes lead to chronic and acute conditions for the organisms that rely on those microbiomes. What we haven't touched on is the role of cryptic sponges and their roles in promoting healthy coral ecosystems or creating feedback loops that lead to constant problems and algae dominate ecosystems. Some of the cryptic sponges found in our reef systems do a much better job of processing the labile DOC generated in reef systems than skimmers. These cryptic sponges are ubiquitous in reef ecosystems and remove DOC 1000X faster than the bacterioplankton which are removed by skimmers. They also are beneficial as they are converting it into DIC (alkalinity) and POC which can then be used by other organisms in a system. Pehaps most importantly they are able to remove the hydrophilic DOC skimmers can't remove and can cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes. So you may credit skimmers for your success but you are ignoring critical aspects of your ecosystem.

I am sorry for stepping on your ego. I have only kept fish for 39 years. I am still keeping fish.
The corals are just interesting things for the fish to swim around. My tanks aren't all about corals but I have many kinds from softies to encrusting sps to gorgonians. My system keeps my aquatic pets in an a simple low maintenance way that has achieved long term success for me.

I am old enough to not fix what isn't broke.

Continue your crusade to save people from the evil of skimmers.

 

[kharmaguru]

Seems a bit harsh.

 

[daniloronchi]

Hi @Timfish , I'm very curious of your statement, and sorry if my English isn't perfect, but I'm writing from Italy.

Do you think that not using the skimmer could be related to the dimension of the tank? And to the number of fish?

 

[wvned]

Sorry
Tough week
Ladders and invalids

How many sponges would I need in my tank for 2 20 inch eels, a large angel and bunch of other fish.
I have angels in both tanks that eat the sponges too.

Every piece of equipment you use on a tank affects the biology of it. I derive a lot more benefits from my skimmers than simply removing certain water components. The biggest one is water polishing. I can raise a real mess and it is gone in 30-40 minutes. I count on this.
Mostly my system keeps water moving quickly until the skimmer removes suspended particles or something eats them. It's why I don't have to clean my sumps.