Dinoflagelates or Diatom (Photos)

[ReeferGil]

I have a 75 gallon mixed reef tank that is about 9 months old. I've never had Diatoms, even during the cycle process. About two months ago I removed about 70% of my Chaeto as it was growing out of the sump and exposing itself to air. I added an automated feeder and went on vacation for 3 weeks while my LFS came to my house and did minor maintenance to the system. He believed the auto feeder was overfeeding from time to time. I ended up with Cyano and this goldish/brown algae. I used ChemiClean and killed off all the Cyano, but the algae remained. The algae is only in my sand bed and has hundreds of tiny bubbles on its surface. I've changed out my GFO, but still no results. The algae is going strong. I've attached some photos, any help would be great. I'm leaning towards this being Dino, but I'm not sure. Phosphates 0 (Hanna Checker)/ Nitrates 0 (API Test Kit). pH 8.10, temp 79 degrees. CA 440, ALK 9 dkh and Mag 1350. Pics below.

Vega LED Lights
MP40 pump
Koralia 1400 pump
(2) Nano pumps

Sump:
Chaeto
Reef Octopus skimmer
GFO reactor
Carbon bags
(2) Filter socks
Auto dosing BRS Alk/Calcium

 

[ReeferGil]

Anybody?

 

[kaserpick]

The Dino's that I've battled in the past have always had lots of bubbles, BUT they've always been very stringy, as well. That bein said, my opinion would be that you are battling Diatoms. But, that's a guess. Both nuisances have many varieties and can look very different.

A few questions:
Does it diminish when the lights are off and then get worse as the day progresses? My Dino's were like that.

Have your snails/mollusks been doing well? Some Dino's can be very toxic for them.

What happens if you vacuum the sand? I'd use a filter sock and siphon the water through the sock, back into your sump. This won't shift any parameters in the system abruptly or accidentally fuel the problem. Keep in mind that if they are Dino's, water changes can fuel them, if you have silicates in your salt mix. I believe Tropic Marin salts are silicate free.

The best thing right now would be to watch things slowly. Many people want to 'fix' things as soon as they see a problem. The algae may look ugly, but is it harming anything? Is it spreading? I would treat the tank with any 'algae fixing' chemicals, since you've already used ChemiClean. Reduce your feeding, like you had it before, and see if it goes away over time.

 

[ReeferGil]

Definitely gets progressively darker brown/gold as the day goes on. Almost not visible when the lights go on in the AM but by the PM it is very dark. I syphon it out and within a day or two it's back. Here is what I have done. It is only in my sand bed where the sand gets light. In the shadow areas, the sand is untouched:

1) Replenished my clean up crew. Like 80 members including Sand Sifting Star Fish (No unusual deaths)
2)Increased water flow
3) Dimmed lights to 50% for next two weeks
4) Shortened light cycle from 11 hours to 7 hours
5) Replaced RO filter cartridges
6) Decreased feedings
7) Increase water changes (Every 3 days)

Thanks for your advice!

 

[sneeyatch]

Looks like cyano to me. It doesn't look stringy / slimy and all full of bubbles. I've dealt with major Dino's a couple of years ago and all I can say is if you do have them, you better get on it. I thought mine was cyano at first but I couldn't get rid of it. Then it started getting real thick, slimy and stringy.

 

[ReeferGil]

Looks like cyano to me. It doesn't look stringy / slimy and all full of bubbles. I've dealt with major Dino's a couple of years ago and all I can say is if you do have them, you better get on it. I thought mine was cyano at first but I couldn't get rid of it. Then it started getting real thick, slimy and stringy.

Thanks! Sk8r also believes it is Dino/Diatom mix due to auto feeder feeding too much while I was on vaction. I'm doing WC's every two days and syphoning sand. Definitely matted like cyano, just not stringy... yet.

I'll cover up the tank and do 3 days of darkness this week. Do you have any other advice? I already pulled waaaaay back on feedings, running GFO and have skimmer running a bit on the wet side.

 

[dowtish]

I would try dosing some microbacter7 or Microbe Lift's 'special blend'. By adding the good bacteria it will out compete the bad. Things should begin to clear up 3-4 weeks permanently.

 

[rmgaspar]

Definitely gets progressively darker brown/gold as the day goes on. Almost not visible when the lights go on in the AM but by the PM it is very dark. I syphon it out and within a day or two it's back. Here is what I have done. It is only in my sand bed where the sand gets light. In the shadow areas, the sand is untouched:

1) Replenished my clean up crew. Like 80 members including Sand Sifting Star Fish (No unusual deaths)
2)Increased water flow
3) Dimmed lights to 50% for next two weeks
4) Shortened light cycle from 11 hours to 7 hours
5) Replaced RO filter cartridges
6) Decreased feedings
7) Increase water changes (Every 3 days)

Thanks for your advice!

Hello,

I had in the past a huge Dino outbreak. They will "rust" your water ....

I did everything above except water changes. I also did raise the pH with no success in any of the methods.

Dinos feed on trace elements, light and Carbon Dioxide.

So you should stop any carbon dosing and stop water changes.

If you don't have anemones you can dose 1ml of Hydrogen peroxide (3%) per 40l.

Do this everyday at the same time. You should note improvements in 7 days and complete remove from the water column in 12 days.

Stop the treatment 3 days after the dinos disappear.

If you note the fishes with respiratory difficulty stop immediately.

All the best,
Rui

 

[sneeyatch]

+1

No water changes if it's dino's. They'll blow up and continue to feed off the fresh nutrients. Best bet is to siphon out the dino's into a filter sock in the sump or in a bucket, then add that water back to the display. Remove the sock and bleach it - allow it to dry. Do this every day. Hydrogen peroxide helped me IMO but I had them so bad that I'm purely speculating at this point. High pH will help and minimize feedings to the point you feel really bad about not feeding your fish.

I've heard that dino's will kill of your snail population but I didn't have that issue. My CUC was mostly hermits out of personal preference. So if you have snails and they're dying off, that may be the indicator you need to determine exactly what you're dealing with.

I ran carbon and GFO during all this as well and changed it out every couple of days.

 

[ReeferGil]

I would try dosing some microbacter7 or Microbe Lift's 'special blend'. By adding the good bacteria it will out compete the bad. Things should begin to clear up 3-4 weeks permanently.

I've never dosed micro bacteria. I'll look into this, thanks!

 

[ReeferGil]

Hello,

I had in the past a huge Dino outbreak. They will "rust" your water ....

I did everything above except water changes. I also did raise the pH with no success in any of the methods.

Dinos feed on trace elements, light and Carbon Dioxide.

So you should stop any carbon dosing and stop water changes.

If you don't have anemones you can dose 1ml of Hydrogen peroxide (3%) per 40l.

Do this everyday at the same time. You should note improvements in 7 days and complete remove from the water column in 12 days.

Stop the treatment 3 days after the dinos disappear.

If you note the fishes with respiratory difficulty stop immediately.

All the best,
Rui

Unfortunately I do have two massive RBTA (split). I understand the new water can provide new nutrition to the Dino, but by the time I am done syphoning out the sand, I've lost 5 gallons of SW that need to be replaced. I use the Aqueon Syphon that attaches to the gardenhose valve. I don't see a gravity fed syphon being strong enough to remove the Dino, right?

I'm syphoning every two days and seems to be working so far. I'm not carbon dosing, but I do have Ulta Balling Light elements in my CA and ALK, very small amounts, but I will replace the ALK and CA without the trace element dosing.

What do you think of 3 days of complete darkness?

 

[ReeferGil]

+1

No water changes if it's dino's. They'll blow up and continue to feed off the fresh nutrients. Best bet is to siphon out the dino's into a filter sock in the sump or in a bucket, then add that water back to the display. Remove the sock and bleach it - allow it to dry. Do this every day. Hydrogen peroxide helped me IMO but I had them so bad that I'm purely speculating at this point. High pH will help and minimize feedings to the point you feel really bad about not feeding your fish.

I've heard that dino's will kill of your snail population but I didn't have that issue. My CUC was mostly hermits out of personal preference. So if you have snails and they're dying off, that may be the indicator you need to determine exactly what you're dealing with.

I ran carbon and GFO during all this as well and changed it out every couple of days.

Ok, so a gravity fed syphon will do the job of removing Dino, it has a strong enough suction? What size syphon hose do you use?

I purchased more CUC members when I was on the fence about it being Dino or Diatoms. I have not noticed any snail deaths... yet. I did lose a couple of LPS that were in the sand bed, they got smothered by the Dino and did not recover. I've pulled my remaining LPS off of the sand bed. I have no Dino on the rocks or glass, I'm grateful I caught this at it's first stages, but still very worried.

I'm a bit chicken to raise my pH levels, I've only been in the hobby for almost a year. I've read Randy Holmes' article on this issue, but some of the content was over my head. None of my remaining corals seem affected by the Dino, so I hesitate to change water perameters and end up creating additional problems due to my inexperience.

What is your take on 3 days of darkness one time per month? I think I have a handle on it right now, it's been two days of no MAJOR outbreaks in my sand bed, but there are some pockets of very light colored Dino by the end of the day, so it's definitely not over. My next step was going to do 3 days of darkness but that suggestion has not really been brought up.

 

[sneeyatch]

You can do the lights out, can't hurt. Sounds like you're getting the upper hand, just don't slack off on it. I used to use a 5/8"Ø hose for pretty much everything I did and yes, it was more than enough to suck the dino's out.

One thing I did when I realized I was winning the battle was go lights out for a couple of days, then I sucked about 1/4" worth of sand out of the entire display. It never came back after that.

Just remember when you're sucking it out, strain the water through a filter sock or floss or something and save the water. Then add the water back to the display. The only "new" water you should be adding right now is top-off.

 

[ReeferGil]

You can do the lights out, can't hurt. Sounds like you're getting the upper hand, just don't slack off on it. I used to use a 5/8"Ø hose for pretty much everything I did and yes, it was more than enough to suck the dino's out.

One thing I did when I realized I was winning the battle was go lights out for a couple of days, then I sucked about 1/4" worth of sand out of the entire display. It never came back after that.

Just remember when you're sucking it out, strain the water through a filter sock or floss or something and save the water. Then add the water back to the display. The only "new" water you should be adding right now is top-off.

I copy that. Going to syphon now then cover the tank. Did you replace the sand you removed?

 

[sneeyatch]

Nope - just left it after that. Had maybe a 1/2" all around after I was done.

 

[ReeferGil]

Ok, here's what I've done:
Plan A1)
Covered the tank with cardboard, completely blacked out. Running this way for 3-4 days.
2) Turned of fug light, going dark there too.
3) Started dosing MB7, will do every day till junk is gone.
4) Very light daily feeding for fish using Elos (no phosphates)

Plan B
If by next month I still have Dino, I will repeat Plan A with aggressive substrate syphoning in between.

Plan C
Get really drunk and start dosing H2O2 with a 10:1 ratio and pray really hard that I don't screw it up.

Thoughts?

 

[ReeferGil]

3-4 days of darkness!

 

[tmb22]

3-4 days of darkness!

I'd be a bit careful with the cardboard. Want to make sure there is still a free exchange of oxygen. Your plans look okay to me. Common techniques to get rid of dino's include elevated pH for a while, and not doing water changes... I see both have been mentioned.

 

[ReeferGil]

I'd be a bit careful with the cardboard. Want to make sure there is still a free exchange of oxygen. Your plans look okay to me. Common techniques to get rid of dino's include elevated pH for a while, and not doing water changes... I see both have been mentioned.

Ha, I actually cut about 4" of cardboard that is sitting on the screen top. This gave me a 4" gap towards the back of the tank for gas exchange. Figured if some ambient light got in, it would not make it all the way down to the sandbed and the back of the tank had zero visual Dino due to shaded areas. Obviously the sump is wide open, but concealed by the cabinet, so that too is providing some gas exchage.

I have not increased my pH yet. Would you think the easiest way to increase would be to use Kalk? I'm just a bit nervous about spiking my ALK too high.

 

[sneeyatch]

75 gallon right? Kalk would be the easiest & cheapest way for a tank that size IMO.

Kalk is pretty simple to deal with, just monitor things as you go - make daily reading at the same time of the day - everyday, and just keep an eye on it. I ran kalk for years, never really had a problem except for when you're dealing with a larger tank and coral demand starts rising, kalk can't really keep up IMO.