Disease in liverock

[Dmorty217]

I have liverock that has ich on it and I want to ensure its free of disease. It's sat out for a few days followed by being soaked in freshwater for a week or more... (Currently still in the freshwater) Is this going to work? Letting dry out can take months and still no way to be sure it was indeed 100% dry.

 

[m0nkie]

when in doubt, some bleach or muriatic acid will take care of everything. the acid will remove all the crap and phosphate sources

 

[ThRoewer]

Since all the live on those rocks is dead by now anyway you may as well "boil" them. Just leave them in the freshwater, add a titanium heater and crank up the heat to 60C (140F) or more for a couple of days. After that all ich will be dead and gone.

 

[Dmorty217]

What if getting the water up to 140 degrees will be difficult? Will just freshwater work?

 

[m0nkie]

here's the answer Snorvich posted awhile back about ich and fresh water.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2471481

Fresh water dips do not kill marine ich because they cannot get to the ich since it is embedded.

Since the theront stage of the cryptocaryon irritans life cycle is the only vulnerable stage to low salinity, rinsing or soaking live rock would not necessarily have any effect.

 

[ThRoewer]

What if getting the water up to 140 degrees will be difficult? ...

In what kind of container do you have the rocks?

Also How big are the individual pieces?

... Will just freshwater work?

If you leave it in there for a year, maybe. Otherwise I wouldn't trust it.

 

[Dmorty217]

In what kind of container do you have the rocks?

Also How big are the individual pieces?


If you leave it in there for a year, maybe. Otherwise I wouldn't trust it.

Pieces are large some weigh close to 50lbs and are the size of a basketball or larger. They are in the 625g running freshwater because of the media from the fish I lost. Not sure how I'm going to get the temperature up to 140 in the 625g. The only other thing that will possibly hold the rock would be the 100g Rubbermaid which currently has my 4 yr old tang in it or my 220g that I just tore down and the liverock came from.

 

[Dmorty217]

I just want to do this right now that I have the chance to.

 

[ThRoewer]

Pieces are large some weigh close to 50lbs and are the size of a basketball or larger. They are in the 625g running freshwater because of the media from the fish I lost. Not sure how I'm going to get the temperature up to 140 in the 625g. The only other thing that will possibly hold the rock would be the 100g Rubbermaid which currently has my 4 yr old tang in it or my 220g that I just tore down and the liverock came from.

The 100 Rubbermaid or even the 220 tank would for sure be easier, regardless what you do.

If heating is not an option then I would get a few pounds of food grade sodium hydroxide (NaOH - you get it at amazon) and use it to turn the water into lye (bleach). The pH should be above 11 and the water feel quite "soapy".
I would bleach the rocks for at least a week, better probably a month to also get all the dead microorganism and algae dissolved.
After that add slowly hydrochloric acid (HCl - also available from amazon) to neutralize the lye to a pH between 8 and 7. They simply react to NaCl (table salt). After the pH is stable near 7 for a while (= lye is completely neutralized) you can drain the tank and then fill it again with freshwater to rinse the rock from any remaining lye residues. Let it soak for at least a week and check the pH daily - it should never go over 8.5.
I would rinse the rocks at least twice to get them clean.
After that you can use them for the new tank.

I would only use pure food or lab grade NaOH and not bleach from the supermarket as that may contain all kind of things you don't want on your rocks.

It would be most effective to dry the rocks for a couple of days before putting them into the lye. That way the lye will get for sure deep into the rocks.

 

[Dmorty217]

here's the answer Snorvich posted awhile back about ich and fresh water.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2471481

So what your saying is Marine ich is so evolutionary that it will live thru freshwater no matter how long and then come back when a marine environment and fish are present?

 

[Dmorty217]

Roewer how would you go about raising the temp to 140 and for how long does it need to stay at 140?

 

[ThRoewer]

So what your saying is Marine ich is so evolutionary that it will live thru freshwater no matter how long and then come back when a marine environment and fish are present?

I don't think ich is capable to adapt to freshwater. But the cyst is like a bubble that is pretty isolated form the outside world. I suppose it's membrane might let oxygen and CO2 through but otherwise not much can get to it that wouldn't also kill fish.
A freshwater dip will definitely not kill it.
Though I'm not so sure about if it can also survive being in freshwater for days or weeks. It may not survive that, but I don't know if someone ever did a study on that.

Heat has been tried and was found to be effective.

Freezing may also work if it is just cold enough. It being winter and you in Ohio may make that as easy as putting the rocks outside for a while...

Roewer how would you go about raising the temp to 140 and for how long does it need to stay at 140?

I answered that in the reply to your PM.

But in short:
1. unregulated titanium heaters (~50 to 100% additional wattage to what would be needed for normal temp.)
2. external controller (Apex for example) to control the heaters
3. Styrofoam insulation

 

[Dmorty217]

I don't think ich is capable to adapt to freshwater. But the cyst is like a bubble that is pretty isolated form the outside world. I suppose it's membrane might let oxygen and CO2 through but otherwise not much can get to it that wouldn't also kill fish.
A freshwater dip will definitely not kill it.
Though I'm not so sure about if it can also survive being in freshwater for days or weeks. It may not survive that, but I don't know if someone ever did a study on that.

Heat has been tried and was found to be effective.

Freezing may also work if it is just cold enough. It being winter and you in Ohio may make that as easy as putting the rocks outside for a while...



I answered that in the reply to your PM.

But in short:
1. unregulated titanium heaters (~50 to 100% additional wattage to what would be needed for normal temp.)
2. external controller (Apex for example) to control the heaters
3. Styrofoam insulation

It's more about the surfaces of the tank, media, rock and return pump I'm more worried about. I could freeze the rocks outside but would rather go the route that takes care of everything in one swoop. Thanks for the reply via pm. The rock will be in freshwater and I will heat the tank water up to 140 or close to it for a day or two.

 

[m0nkie]

So what your saying is Marine ich is so evolutionary that it will live thru freshwater no matter how long and then come back when a marine environment and fish are present?

well ThRoewer seem to already explained it.. I'm sure you already understand the life cycle of ich.. theronts is when they are out and infective. They are also vulnerable to lower salinity (fresh water). But there's a chance the encysted ich survives.. you seem to have gone through all this recently. I'm sure you don't want to leave it to chance.. That's why I recommended bleach or acid.

ventilate the house if you decide to heat up the tank. be careful if you have zoas or palys on the rocks.. you may be aerosolizing the toxin

 

[shermanator]

If heating is not an option then I would get a few pounds of food grade sodium hydroxide (NaOH - you get it at amazon) and use it to turn the water into lye (bleach).

Bleach is sodium hypochlorite and lye is just concentrated sodium hydroxide.

After that add slowly hydrochloric acid (HCl - also available from amazon) to neutralize the lye to a pH between 8 and 7. They simply react to NaCl (table salt). After the pH is stable near 7 for a while (= lye is completely neutralized) you can drain the tank and then fill it again with freshwater to rinse the rock from any remaining lye residues. Let it soak for at least a week and check the pH daily - it should never go over 8.5.

NO! Good god. You will have a dangerous mess if you quench con. NaOH with a mineral acid. To neutralize a strongly basic solution the safe way is to use sodium bicarbonate. And you keep saying bleach, if it were actually bleach and you added acid, you'd make a ton of chlorine gas and probably kill yourself.

I realize you might know a heck of a lot more about fish disease than I do. But I'm a chemistry professor and feel compelled to mention the things you are suggesting are incredibly dangerous with no justification for their use.

No one should ever quench a strongly basic solution with a mineral acid like HCl. And acid + bleach is a major no no.

I would only use pure food or lab grade NaOH and not bleach from the supermarket

Aside from sodium hydroxide not being bleach, I will note you can buy pure hypochlorite (sodium or calcium) from any pool store.

For what it's worth, to quench bleach, you should use sodium thiosulfate.

 

[ThRoewer]

Hm, it's been well over 30 years that I bleached corals - I may have remembered the neutralization wrong or confused with the DI resin regeneration.
Thanks for correcting that.

 

[skp]

Wouldn't it be easier to just start it up and let it cycle and then not add any fish for a couple months?

 

[Louis Z]

I have done this before of adding the pool chemical muriatic acid which is HCl , it is nasty , I do my rocks in plastic buckets to sterilize. Yes gloves and goggles and protective clothing , and after pouring it in run away so as not to breathe the chlorine in. After it soaks and stops bubbling I pour water in to neutralize the remaining HCl. It removes the outer layer of rock and some phosphate attached to the rock. Still unsure but I soak in FResh water for one week and then let sit outside for another then I put it in regular salt water for a soak . If by chance any cyst stage survived , it could hatch in a tank devoid of fishes. As for me I am paranoid. My local fish stores are so bad around me that I can rest assured that I will have ick and velvet at the same time.

 

[tassod]

I recently went through this a couple of months ago. I put all my rock (live at the time) in a 100g stock tank outside the house and filled it with tap water and poured 2 gallons of bleach in it. It nuked everything. Then i rinsed in freshwater and let is soak for another couple of days with Prime and then let it dry outside for another week. Tank has been up and running now with no issues.