Disease outbreaks in LFS, calling experts w/ LFS Experience

[JackandJill]

I made a thread a few weeks ago about how to reduce disease in the LFS that I own.

I'm not sure if it is against forum rules as a "commercial store" to request advice but as a former hobbyist and still hobbyist I am hoping you can help advice me. I've tried reading everything I can possibly find on the topic.

I usually lose a fish every few days, yesterday I lost 5, this morning I lost 10. I can try to grab a picture, if relevant, but it looks like velvet.

When it comes to losing hundreds of dollars of fish a day I am willing to spare no expense if necessary, I'm just not sure what route to go.

It appears ozone is efficient at cleaning water, but not so much at killing parasites. Raising/lowering salinity/temperature does not kill parasites so I'm guessing that isn't the answer.
Temp - 80
Salinity - 1.025
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <50

The fish sections are two systems approx. 800-1000g each.

 

[Deinonych]

If it's velvet, chloroquine phosphate is the preferred treatment @ 40mg/gal (10mg/L). Timelines given above are consistent with a velvet outbreak. Pictures would be helpful if you can provide them.

 

[snorvich]

I made a thread a few weeks ago about how to reduce disease in the LFS that I own.

I'm not sure if it is against forum rules as a "commercial store" to request advice but as a former hobbyist and still hobbyist I am hoping you can help advice me. I've tried reading everything I can possibly find on the topic.

I usually lose a fish every few days, yesterday I lost 5, this morning I lost 10. I can try to grab a picture, if relevant, but it looks like velvet.

When it comes to losing hundreds of dollars of fish a day I am willing to spare no expense if necessary, I'm just not sure what route to go.

It appears ozone is efficient at cleaning water, but not so much at killing parasites. Raising/lowering salinity/temperature does not kill parasites so I'm guessing that isn't the answer.
Temp - 80
Salinity - 1.025
Ammonia - 0
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <50

The fish sections are two systems approx. 800-1000g each.

I occasionally act as a paid consultant to LFS (more on the financial side working on business models) but I have also advised in this area too.

Contrary to popular belief (of some) ozone will not do a lot in your situation other than act as a water clarifier. At that, however, it is excellent although UV can work well in that capacity as well.

UV will provide some protection if configured properly to keep parasites from spreading from tank to tank but for a given tank, it will not eradicate them. (also true for hobbyists).

Some LFS run a non-therapeutic dose of copper. This will tend to mask the parasites but if the end user does not quarantine properly, it merely passes the problem on to the end user.

True quarantine is financially infeasible. Almost every buyer (at least the vast majority do) of fish tends to be price sensitive and does comparative analysis. When we tried to quantify the effect of properly quarantining, we ended up estimating that you would have to charge roughly double the going retail price. Some maintenance services do quarantine their fish properly, but they do guarantee them and they do charge roughly double.

At this point, you have velvet in your system(s) and in order to eradicate it a given system must be fallow for three weeks or run CP in each system as mentioned above. Long term, however, I do not think you can run CP in perpetuity and it is definitely not inexpensive.

 

[JackandJill]

I occasionally act as a paid consultant to LFS (more on the financial side working on business models) but I have also advised in this area too.

Contrary to popular belief (of some) ozone will not do a lot in your situation other than act as a water clarifier. At that, however, it is excellent although UV can work well in that capacity as well.

UV will provide some protection if configured properly to keep parasites from spreading from tank to tank but for a given tank, it will not eradicate them. (also true for hobbyists).

Some LFS run a non-therapeutic dose of copper. This will tend to mask the parasites but if the end user does not quarantine properly, it merely passes the problem on to the end user.

True quarantine is financially infeasible. Almost every buyer (at least the vast majority do) of fish tends to be price sensitive and does comparative analysis. When we tried to quantify the effect of properly quarantining, we ended up estimating that you would have to charge roughly double the going retail price. Some maintenance services do quarantine their fish properly, but they do guarantee them and they do charge roughly double.

At this point, you have velvet in your system(s) and in order to eradicate it a given system must be fallow for three weeks or run CP in each system as mentioned above. Long term, however, I do not think you can run CP in perpetuity and it is definitely not inexpensive.

I wouldn't be opposed to running the system fallow for three weeks to rid the system of velvet, but am I right in assuming that a few orders down the road I'm likely to get it right back again? Even if it is on 1/200 fish. It is only a matter of a month or two until its right back in the system.

It looks like in my systems I have had small outbreaks of ich, velvet, and brook in the two months I have been open. So it's reasonable to figure if in two months I got all three, if I was able to leave all systems fallow for 10 or 12 weeks and completely restart I would end up exactly where I'm at in 2 more months.

 

[snorvich]

I wouldn't be opposed to running the system fallow for three weeks to rid the system of velvet, but am I right in assuming that a few orders down the road I'm likely to get it right back again? Even if it is on 1/200 fish. It is only a matter of a month or two until its right back in the system.

It looks like in my systems I have had small outbreaks of ich, velvet, and brook in the two months I have been open. So it's reasonable to figure if in two months I got all three, if I was able to leave all systems fallow for 10 or 12 weeks and completely restart I would end up exactly where I'm at in 2 more months.

That is correct. While you can temporarily fix the problem, there is no easy, financially feasible long term solution. And by the way, brook and uronema are a bit different in that uronema does not require a fish host as part of the life cycle.

 

[JackandJill]

That is correct. While you can temporarily fix the problem, there is no easy, financially feasible long term solution. And by the way, brook and uronema are a bit different in that uronema does not require a fish host as part of the life cycle.

My store display tank (my personal home tank dedicated to the store) is 100% pest free, all fish thrive, corals thrive, water parameters are spot on because I read and listened to those more experienced and knowledgeable than I.

As a business owner all decisions are ultimately mine to make and I am the one who has to live with the consequences. But I would not be where I am at without utilizing the vast resources of reefcentral and you, snorvich.

I am curious then, if you were in my shoes. What would you do? Dose copper, install appropriately sized UV, and/or allocate it as a cost of doing business and ensure prices are appropriate to ensure profit.

 

[snorvich]

My store display tank (my personal home tank dedicated to the store) is 100% pest free, all fish thrive, corals thrive, water parameters are spot on because I read and listened to those more experienced and knowledgeable than I.

As a business owner all decisions are ultimately mine to make and I am the one who has to live with the consequences. But I would not be where I am at without utilizing the vast resources of reefcentral and you, snorvich.

I am curious then, if you were in my shoes. What would you do? Dose copper, install appropriately sized UV, and/or allocate it as a cost of doing business and ensure prices are appropriate to ensure profit.

The practices of a store owner and a hobbyist are radically different as you know. As a minimum, I would certainly install an appropriately sized UV to at least limit movement of parasites between tanks. How frequently do you receive shipments? Is tank maintenance a major business line? Are corals and inverts a major part of your business?

 

[JackandJill]

How frequently do you receive shipments?

Weekly

Is tank maintenance a major business line?

I plan for it to be as we become more established and have credibility, but as of the moment, No.

Are corals and inverts a major part of your business?

Yes, it seems that winning coral people's business is harder than fish onlys, but business has doubled in that regard in our second month (November).

 

[snorvich]

There is no "right answer" here. But you need to develop a way of analyzing the financial impact of whatever course of action you decide upon.

What I am going to suggest may sound counter intuitive, but . . .

You need to develop a business model. Enumerate your Fixed costs (including salaries, rent, utilities, etc). Let us say for example, that your fixed costs are $10,000 per month. Then you need to compute your monthly break even point which is taking your average gross profit margin divided into the total of your fixed costs. So, assume that your average gross profit margin is 50% (which is probably high since dry goods are not as profitable), that would mean that you would have to gross $20,000 per month to break even (cash flow neutral). You will also have to reduce your profit margin to allow for shrinkage of inventory (theft, spoilage), and fish and invert fatality. This process will allow you to create a model to see the impact of your actions. So, let us now assume that you keep a copper level or a level of CP in your fish systems, that would add $$$ to your fixed costs since you would need to spend that amount irrespective of the number of fish sold. That would also mean that your break even sales point would rise.

 

[Reefstarter2]

have you checked power

have you checked power

you could very well have stray voltage in your system . I know I know its not supposed to kill fish that quick but I had it happen in my tanks at home . so worth checking

 

[snorvich]

you could very well have stray voltage in your system . I know I know its not supposed to kill fish that quick but I had it happen in my tanks at home . so worth checking

Probably not relevant in this particular case.

 

[pktech]

@ jacknjill - did you start this store from scratch or did you take it over? I'm sorry you're going through this hassle. I'm wondering what the plan is for the next shipment coming in.

 

[.Chris.]

In my experience as an LFS worker, the only financially feasible option for handling this sort of thing is to run elevated levels of copper. You run into the problem of fish lacking appetite, or the copper destroying the gut flora of the fish, making it so that the food they do eat will not help them much in terms of nutrients, however.

We run it at 0.55mg/L and test daily, and dose appropriately.

We haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year. Our only issue is flukes and other parasites, but we combat that by routinely (once monthly) running a weeklong treatment of praziquantel at 300%, dosed three times with three days between each treatment, as well as add praziquantel directly into the food batches we make three times weekly.

 

[snorvich]

Of course, some fish cannot deal with copper. And brook and uronema need different treatments. However, running copper at therapeutic level will work to some degree.

 

[snorvich]

There are, however, people who will not buy from a vendor that runs copper. (they are in the minority, however).

 

[pktech]

In my experience as an LFS worker, the only financially feasible option for handling this sort of thing is to run elevated levels of copper. You run into the problem of fish lacking appetite, or the copper destroying the gut flora of the fish, making it so that the food they do eat will not help them much in terms of nutrients, however.

We run it at 0.55mg/L and test daily, and dose appropriately.

We haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year. Our only issue is flukes and other parasites, but we combat that by routinely (once monthly) running a weeklong treatment of praziquantel at 300%, dosed three times with three days between each treatment, as well as add praziquantel directly into the food batches we make three times weekly.

My fish won't touch food laced with praziquantel. I guess if they're hungry, they'll eat anything. Do you add anything else to the food to make it more appealing?

 

[.Chris.]

Of course, some fish cannot deal with copper. And brook and uronema need different treatments. However, running copper at therapeutic level will work to some degree.

Agreed. We don't put certain angels and wrasses and butterflies on system for that reason. We have a copper free system as well.

 

[.Chris.]

My fish won't touch food laced with praziquantel. I guess if they're hungry, they'll eat anything. Do you add anything else to the food to make it more appealing?

Kent Garlic Xtreme, Selcon, Vita-Chem. I rarely have a problem getting fish to eat. Even finicky ones like purple queen anthias, pencil wrasses and anampses wrasses.

 

[JackandJill]

@ jacknjill - did you start this store from scratch or did you take it over? I'm sorry you're going through this hassle. I'm wondering what the plan is for the next shipment coming in.

Both. I bought some inventory off of another store and picked up many of their orphaned customers but I am an independent and separate business.

In my experience as an LFS worker, the only financially feasible option for handling this sort of thing is to run elevated levels of copper. You run into the problem of fish lacking appetite, or the copper destroying the gut flora of the fish, making it so that the food they do eat will not help them much in terms of nutrients, however.

We run it at 0.55mg/L and test daily, and dose appropriately.

We haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year. Our only issue is flukes and other parasites, but we combat that by routinely (once monthly) running a weeklong treatment of praziquantel at 300%, dosed three times with three days between each treatment, as well as add praziquantel directly into the food batches we make three times weekly.

If you don't mind me asking, when you say "haven't had a problem with velvet or ich in over a year" do you mean you have literally 0 problems with ich or velvet or that it has decreased its victim percentage by say...70%?

If you also don't mind me asking, on an average day how many fish will you typically lose for one reason or another out of the total average you have on hand at a given time?



Another thing I am curious about and wondering if anyone can give insight is why does saltwater ich, velvet, brook, and other parasites seem to take a better hold than freshwater ones? On an average day we lose 5-10 feeder guppies/minnows/goldfish but no other freshwater fish. However, our saltwater fish seem to be dropping daily (especially the last week). Wouldn't parasites be just as deadly in freshwater systems as saltwater? I haven't even noticed a single incidence of ich's trademark salt on a freshwater fish in two months, yet on half the marine fish it is visible.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

 

[Deinonych]

Another thing I am curious about and wondering if anyone can give insight is why does saltwater ich, velvet, brook, and other parasites seem to take a better hold than freshwater ones? On an average day we lose 5-10 feeder guppies/minnows/goldfish but no other freshwater fish. However, our saltwater fish seem to be dropping daily (especially the last week). Wouldn't parasites be just as deadly in freshwater systems as saltwater? I haven't even noticed a single incidence of ich's trademark salt on a freshwater fish in two months, yet on half the marine fish it is visible.

Thank you everyone for the advice.

I believe it has to do with the nature of collecting and transporting marine species. Most freshwater fish are aquacultured, whereas the majority of marine fish are collected from the wild. Cryptocaryon and Amyloodinium are both parasites that persist in the animals' natural habitat. They only become problematic in captivity due to confinement and small volumes of water. In the wild, currents and large volumes of water prevent the parasites from becoming virulent.