Ditching the MJ-mods for a closed loop?

[fishdoc11]

A mechanical or fluidized bed filter isn't needed in a reef tank. Live rock, good flow and a skimmer are all that is really needed for filtration. You can allways add a small canister filter to run carbon or a fluidized filter if you want to run phosphate remover but I wouldn't dedicate a loop or even a large canister filter to filtration. That would just be something else to clean and create a nitrate problem IMO.

IMO the main advantage of a CL over a set of Tunzes is price. With a multicontroller you can set the Tunzes to all sorts of varied flow patterns that aren't achievable with a CL. Anyway Chris is trying to get rid of powerheads so I only brought them into the conversation to relate my experience.

Chris

 

[coralreefing]

c_stowers
First off thanks for the pics & info. I'm trying to identify where everything is going from the pictures. Looks like your loop is split 5 ways. The outside 2 go to penductors that blow across the front glass. The center line goes to the sea swirl & the other 2 go down behind your LR. The center three lines are valved back to pressurize the penductors. Is this correct? What pump are you using. Nice plumbing job BTW. Good use of valves & unions.

 

[c_stowers]

Thanks for the compliments. You are correct on how everything is set up. The two that go behind the LR have two outputs each, just to keep detritus from settling behind the reef. Another important factor is the gate valve on the sea swirl so that I can finely tweek the this flow to change my flow patterns. As my corals have grown I have slowly tweeked the amount of flow coming from the sea swirl to avoid any dead spots. If I had it to do over again, I would install two sea swirls, one on each end of the back of the tank.

I am using a Sequence 4300 for my closed loop. It puts out alot of flow and handles pressure VERY well, but it does have a hum to it. I've looked for quiter pumps that perform as well as the 4300, but haven't found any. The best thing about the 4300 series is that they come with an industrial Baldor motor, closed impeller, and a true mechanical seal.

 

[c_stowers]

I should also say that they plumbing alone for my system cost about $200. I think its worth it because of the versitility and reliability over powerheads, but you should keep the cost of plubming in mind. It certainly ins't neglible. It took me a while to design everything as well. Siffy helped me do all the actual gluing and I think it took us about 8 hours, but I havn't had one leak or problem since. There is also a significant amount of plumbing for return pump not pictured inside my stand.

 

[coralreefing]

Fishdoc
I'm wanting to add a mechanical filter because my skimmer isn't getting all the detritus out. Could be because I don't have enough random flow to get it into the water column though. I'm also limited on which skimmers I can use because I'm not running a sump.

 

[Siffy]

http://finsreef.com/home.php?cat=254
http://finsreef.com/product.php?productid=16294&cat=262&page=1
There are always options. Albeit expensive ones... and very expensive ones.

 

[Siffy]

And it's worth mentioning c_stowers is being conservative with his cost/time numbers. I remember it being closer to $300 ($75 of it is in just 2 2" true union ball valves) and more like 12-16 hours doing the plumbing over 3 nights.

 

[waynesworld]

Chris in your plumbing of the CL is your input pipe coming over the tank? The reason I asked is when I started a CL before I drilled my 90 some people that were selling pumps said not to go over a tank as you have a greater chance of cavitation and damaging the pumps. what type of pump do you use for the CL?

 

[Siffy]

Since he may have already left work (and sans internet), I'll answer for Chris. The intake is 2" black PVC over the tank wall via 2 90's. The strainer is at least 8" under the water surface at all times. For it to suck air and cause the pump to cavitate, he'd already have much bigger problems than worrying about his Sequence 4300 burning up. A sufficiently submerged intake will draw nothing but water. There was a "vortex" discussion last summer about this. I'll admit I don't understand the math behind it, but I know there is some.

To prime the system there's a 1/2" ball valve with a hose insert at the highest point to pump water into the plumbing. You can see it in one of the pictures. There is still some air in the plumbing after priming, but it's all forced out within a few seconds.

To drain the CL system, there's a similar valve + barb at the lowest point (not shown) that can be opened after the top valve is opened (to break the siphon). AFAIK, he's never done that, but it's in place if he ever needs to remove the plumbing or pump without spilling about 3 gallons of water on the floor.

 

[waynesworld]

The air some times come from real small breaks in the joints. That is great it works for him as I am not a fan of drilling any tank I would also make sure there is some place in the plumbing that will break the siphon if the seals of the pump go out as it happens my brother had it happen to him and lucky it was his return pump from his sump not the CL and he was there not on vacation.

 

[c_stowers]

Cavitation will occur regardless of how far the inlet is below the water surface if the NPSH required is not met. There are simple calculations you can do to make sure this won't happen. The sequence pumps have low NPSH requirments so you can do an over the tank installations in almost any case.

 

[fishdoc11]

Here are a couple of pics of my CL's in early stages for more ideas:
Just after the setup of the 90:

I later added penductors and those made a huge difference.

Here you can see the CL pump in the cabinet on top:
My new setup a couple of days after moving it from Nashville.

Notice I made the new CL with black PVC and grey or clear fittings depending on what I could find and I think that made a big difference as far as looks are concerned.

One thing I didn't add that I did in my 29 is the Squid. I think that makes a big difference, both in coral health and getting detritus removed due to the random action.

As far as pumps the sequence pumps are great and reasonable in price. I have used a GenX pcx 40 on my loop the whole time and it has worked well. It handles head well(26 feet max I seem to recall) and IMO you could put an OM 4 way and run it with 4 penductors (alternating 2 and 2 at a time) and greatly improve your flow and detritus buidup problems. Another thing that really helps me with detritus is blowing off the rocks evey few weeks with a MJ 1200 with a filter sock left on the return line to my sump. I remove that after a day or so because waste material seems to break down much quicker in the high flow environment of the filter sock equiped return so I try not to leave it for more than a day or two.....increased algae always seems to be the result if I don't.
hth, Chris

 

[NeveSSL]

Wow... this has been a good read.

And I completely agree with fishdoc about the color of your plumbing. Using black on the inside of the tank makes a HUGE difference... I would imagine most of you guys know this, but just FWIW.

My tank before replumbing:

My tank after replumbing (sans corals):

I love the new look. Really helps you to focus on the contents and not the plumbing.

Great thread!

Brandon

 

[H@rry]

Brandon;

Please excuse me for displaying my ignorance but could you achieve the same results by using upturned elbows in your bulkheads and not having the overflow box? I'm sure there must be some reason behind it that's not occurring to me.

Thanx
H@rry

 

[Pickupman66]

Here is a pic of my tank with and the loop I have. it is 1" all around with 2 returns in the tank. I origionally started witha quietone 6000 for it which was like running a generator in the living room it was so loud. they say they can be run externally, but the one I had actually melted the carpet under it. Ratled unless I had some back pressure on it and restarting sounded like it was going to blow up! Quietone, more like loud as hell one! I replaced with a genx pcx 40 and have been quite happy with it. it is nice a quiet compared to its predecessor. I never turn mine off. I have 2 balls and 2 unions right at the pump for service and for priming I have just a 1" cap at the top of the supply side. fill it once and you will never have to do it again. even when I take out pump, once back in, with the water that remains in the lines, it reprimes its self, just a small bubble storm. power goes off and then back on, there is no loss of prime at all so it is fully seamless. I built it myself and then rebuilt it a few times because of leaks etc. all of it goes over the tank. via 90 Degree elbows. If you do bulid it, use the Blue PVC glue and plenty of it. the blue works best in saltwater and wil help you see if you made the best seal and connection.

Pre loop

closeup of suction pipe. I had to extend it down further to keep from sucking in air.

current look I the inside split is from the sump return.

 

[NeveSSL]

PM sent, H@rry.

Brandon

 

[coralreefing]

Ok, here's the revised plan.

2 closed loops powered by Gen X PCX 40 pumps. One loop will be just a pump with 3/4" locline returns to the four corners, using these flow accelerators.

The second loop will run through double size Lifegard mechanical, chemical & heater modules.
Like the first 3 cannisters here.

Then through a SCWD & the 2 returns will be in the center pointing left & right, also with flow accelerators, for random flow.

What do you think? Will it be too much?

 

[Siffy]

A Gen-X PCX 40 @ 1190gph (@0', don't know what the filters will do to that) will be way too much throughput for a SCWD. They can handle about 700gph tops. And it's definitely not recommended to have anything that would put back pressure (the flow accelerators) after them. Those accelerators may not put near as much pressure on the line as an actual penductor, since they supposedly don't require a pressure rated pump (I bought a couple too to try, but haven't even gotten them wet yet). I think a SCWD is rated at 5 psi max. A Gen-X with 2 SCWDs and no flow accelerators could be an option.

 

[coralreefing]

Thanks Siffy. I forgot about the back pressure on the SCWD. They are supposed to be rated at up to 1400gph though. Is that incorrect? It does seem like a lot to put through a 5/8 barb.

 

[Siffy]

"Use with system pumps from 50-1,400 gph and maximum 5 psi."

That's correct, but you'll never get that much through them. I doubt we'd get more than 1000gph through 3/4" hose. Anyone can feel free to correct me on that. If they weren't so expensive, I'd certainly recommend an Oceans Motion. I'd also have one if they weren't.